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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
 Posted - 01/14/2010 : 09:44:21
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This topic is for your questions that do not seem to be covered in the CEC. Students, apprentices, journeymen, and masters could use this for documentation of those simple questions with difficult answers.
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2010 : 09:46:45
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Question number one.
Is it allowed to run a cable in a raceway? An example would be non-metallic sheathed cable inside a PVC conduit. I cannot find the answer in the CEC...yet.
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2010 : 16:47:11
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Answer #1.
Sometimes.
For example, yes you can run NMD90 into a PVC conduit (provided it's done properly), however you cannot run TECK90 into PVC conduit.
Bruce |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 11:34:23
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thanks brsele,
I thought so, but couldn't find permission in the CEC. I am looking for a rule number.
It is interesting that I ran Teck in PVC through a short 2 meter underground section. It was passed.
You have to admit that to find some things in the CEC requires a lawyer's way of thinking.
Thanks again |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 11:50:27
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Probably a Philedelphia lawyer.
In Ontario, they publish bulletins that help to clarify rules that may be causing confusion. I know that they've helped me to understand rules in the past.
Ths bottom line is that if the code doesn't say that you cannot do something, then you can. Unless of course you're not allowed.
There, that should clear things up. |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 11:57:08
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Since I'm bored, I have one for you.
Rule 12-1402(1)(a) says that EMT shall not be used where it will be subject to mechanical injury either during installation or afterwards.
So can you use EMT for receptacles on the face of an inside wall, say within 1.5m of the floor? |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2010 : 14:15:27
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No, it definately means that you cannot use emt anywhere.
EMT may be subject to mechanical damage if a forklift runs over it before it is actually installed, and afterwards if the forklift runs into the wall, the EMT may get damaged. Heh heh.
By the way, why is EMT used in lots of industrial applications where you can see it? If it can be seen, it can be damaged. |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2010 : 19:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by bytemylobster
By the way, why is EMT used in lots of industrial applications where you can see it? If it can be seen, it can be damaged.
You've just repeated my question, didn't you?
I didn't say anything about tow motors.
Can you use EMT for receptacles on the face of an inside wall, say within 1.5m of the floor in any environment?
How about in the basement of a house?
Cheers... Bruce |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 08:41:49
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The question that this brings up is what does the code define "mechanical damage" and "mechanical injury" as.
Unles it is specifically written out with examples, who knows what is legal? |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 19:13:02
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Interestingly enough, under the word "damage" my dictionary says to see "injure".
I think that you were on the right track with the towmotor example.
Perhaps this is one area of the code where we are supposed to use... common sense (GASP). As an Electrican we should know that a person walking by EMT isn't likely to accidentally damage it enough to cause a problem, whereas a towmotor could accidentally cause enough damage to cause a problem.
Actually, as I'm writing this and thinking about some of the rocket scientists that I've met at CSA, I'm thinking that I must be wrong about the whole common sense thing. |
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Mshea
Avid Member
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2010 : 16:12:25
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There are rules that refer you to table 19 and table 19 is used to provide the permitted use of various cables. Look at the rules for raceways and see if you find teck listed. Not there is it? can't install teck in a raceway, simple that one. brsele You may not install NMD90 in a raceway regardless of any method of installation EXCEPT that short sections of raceways used to provide mechanical protection would allow a receptacle installed on the surface of a wall to use EMT as a form of protection for the portion under 5 feet.
I like the term subject to mechanical damage. That is not defined very well since EMT can provide mechanical protection for loomex unless the EMT is subject to mechanical damage too where you could use Rigid steel conduit except where it is subject to mechanical damage????? Getting a headache yet? put any raceway at bumper height where a car could contact it and it is subject to mechanical damage. put a bollard in front of the pipe and it is no longer subject.
Obviously each material has a threshold for mechanical damage and the likelihood of it occurring. Loomex exposed below 1.5 meters is considered to be subject to damage and always requires additional protection. |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2010 : 11:56:48
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I'm sorry Mshea, I respect you and your knowledge and I appreciate having an inspector participate in these forums, but you are wrong about pulling NMD90 into conduit. It is allowed. I would like to point out that both Rule 22-204(5) and Ontario Bulletin 68-7-4 support my position. If you can point out a specific code reference stating otherwise, I'd love to see it.
In your response you state that you are not allowed to do something and then give an example of where you are allowed to do it. Again, I'm sorry but the code is pretty black and white. Yes there are situations where the code says "Thou shall not..." and then gives you permission in specifc situations i.e.: Using flexible cord in theatres and using 60 degree cables (NMW) for lighting circuits in barns. But that isn't what we're talking about here unless you can provide a specific code reference stating that thou shall not pull NMD90 into conduit.
Byte, your best bet on whether you can pull NMD90 into conduit in Alberta is to ask your local AHJ. I can tell you that in Ontario you CAN pull NMD90 into conduit. This is a perfect example of where the code can be difficult to understand. Luckily for me, Mshea doesn't inspect in my area. Heaven help me if I'm ever asked to to a job on Vancouver island.
Cheers... Bruce |
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Mshea
Avid Member
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2010 : 16:51:51
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The rules for Loomex are 12-500 to 12-526. 22-204(5) is an amendatory rule and if the conditions are met then OK I have to update my brain. It is not however a blanket approval to use a raceway and install loomex in it. So I edit my answer to say that except as permitted by 22-204(5) loomex is not approved for installation in a raceway. Be carefully too as the exception says to provide mechanical protection. Put the raceway above the 300 mm and I could reject the use of the raceway as mechanical protection is not required.
The principal is that the raceway is there to provide mechanical protection and does not necessarily require that the raceway be a complete and closed system as it would if you pull wires listed in table 19 and follow the rules in section 12.
12-100 refers to table 19 and the conditions of use are directed there. Nowhere in table 19 is nmd or nmw listed as approved for installation in a raceway.
Lets look at a couple of rules that permit a raceway to provide mechanical protection to a cable not approved for installation in a raceway.
12-012(5)and 12-212(1). Lots of other rules about mechanical protection. Nothing specifically dictates the form of mechanical protection however except the two section 12 rules and as you pointed out 22-204(5)which is an exception and your Ontario Bulletin is only valid in Ontario. I know lots of inspectors that will allow you to use nmw and nmd in a raceway and until this code was published probably let you put teck in a raceway too.
I am not, however completely devoid of any common sense but maybe you can explain why you would build a raceway system that meet the requirement from section 12 and then pull NMD90 in it?
Now I imagine you are actually saying that sections of an electrical raceway are being used to provide protection for a complete and compliant Loomex installation. Sure I have seen where a length of PVC runs from a house crawl space to a Garage buried to the correct depth and later the electrician uses it to pull in an NMWU between buildings. The raceway is not a complete system in that it is cut off at the floor at both ends and is only providing a hole through the ground The NMWU is installed into the panel with a connector and at the first outlet or sub panel through a loomex connector. That type of installation isn't a pipe and wire job it is using a pipe solely as a hole through the ground. As you know Loomex is not allowed to be surface run below 1.5 m without providing mechanical protection. EMT and Rigid PVC would be allowed below 1.5 meters without mechanical protection unless subject to mechanical damage. So when an electrician puts a piece of EMT down a finished wall for a plug and the building is wired in loomex the legal way is to put a JB at the top of the pipe down to an outlet box and splice the loomex to a listed wire for installation in a raceway. OK, Do we really enforce that? So far as I know the answer is No we don't. What is accepted is the installer puts an EMT to AC 90 connector (also approved for NM cables) at the top of the pipe and strip the jacket off the loomex sliding all the wires down to the outlet box for splicing and adding the plug. Typically an 1110 with a 11-c-?? outlet cover. by the way the conductors inside loomex are usually of a type permitted to be installed in a raceway. It eliminates a couple of splices too.
This covers exceptions but no where, even in 22-204(5)does is prescribe pulling loomex in a raceway it only provides for using rigid steel or PVC for mechanical protection and does not specifically allow or state that the raceway must be completed as a system. So running down a wall to within 300mm of a horizontal surface only requires 300 mm of raceway and not a complete system into which you pull loomex. I suppose this exception does not actually say you can't but why would you buy loomex and install it in a raceway? trying to spend your bosses vacation money?
Look at the rules for raceways and they must be installed as complete systems before the wires are installed yet 22-204(5) requires them to protect loomex??
I have said it several ways but loomex is not allowed to be installed in raceways as least not when the raceway system is installed per the rules of section 12 and that includes Alberta and I believe even in Ontario but I have no idea of the bulletin referred to in your rebuttal actually says. Be careful in BC, never mind Victoria as This is not just a Victoria interpretation. Your notion that the code is a binary document is not really true as 2-030 should reveal, never mind trying to define where and what is mechanical protection.
I think your participation in this forum already marks you as a thinking person and likely a cut above the average person working in this industry. Keep the challenges coming and I have room to learn new things too. |
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brsele
Active Member
Canada
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2010 : 18:27:07
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We'll probably never come to complete agreement on this subject, but we're getting closer.
Byte asked a very general question and I replied with an equally vague answer... "sometimes" and "provided it's done properly". Without knowing the context of his question, that was the best answer I could offer. Although I really would be interested in hearing what an inspector in his area has to say on the subject.
Now, would I build a complete raceway as per Section 12 and then pull NMD90 into it? I honestly can't think of any situation where I would want to.
Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. If you're ever coming to the Toronto area, give me a shout and I'll buy you a beer. Unless you're on expenses, then you can buy me a beer. :)
Cheers... Bruce |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 08:37:53
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This is what I had in mind. The CEC may be specific, but it needs to point us in the direction of what we can do without having to pester inspectors (who are our peers).
Yes, I pulled teck from a customer's panel room, through the air duct, into the furnace room, then to the outdoors into PVC buried under a gate and up the fence, then exposed the teck along top of the fence to feed a PVC shed where I installed a sub-panel (bonding screw removed, of course) then ran BX for switched outlets. It took me more than 1/2 a day just to get the teck from one side of the house to the other. By the way, U also pulled a twine and coax cable for future.
It would have been easier if the CEC could explain what mechanical damage and injury are.
And rule 22-204(5) means you cannot run NMD in EMT, only rigid conduit and only if you house livestock in there. Most times, I do not want livestock in my house. Hmmmm, Could I do it if I housed a rabbit? |
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rabbitgun
Forum Magnate
USA
2035 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 08:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by bytemylobster
Hmmmm, Could I do it if I housed a rabbit?
Insert shocked emoticon here.  |
An analog man in a digital world.
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avoidingwork
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 15:33:08
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Armoured cable can't be pulled into a complete raceway because a connector is required to bond the armour. You can put a connector on the end of a raceway and strip the cable.
As to installing the stripped portion in a raceway, when the outer covering is removed, it ceases to be that cable and the rating of the conductors is the issue. For example, I can strip the sheath off a length of ac90 and pull the rw90 conductors into a conduit, but I can't take the stripped conductors and run them down a wall with a strap every 1.5m.
I don't know what to think about nmd in a conduit. I don't think the conductors have a rating printed on them.
More of an issue around here is whether 20 feet of pvc underground is a sleeve. It is if it's a water line, but not if it's pvc. |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 16:48:35
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Here is a new one:
I have a customer who has his garage door opener mounted on angle iron; however, it is three feet short of reaching the ceiling mounted outlet. I want to be able to manufacture an extension cord and tie-wrap it to the angle iron. Simple fix?
#4-010 says I cannot fasten flexible cable to a structur (is the supporting bracket a structure? It also says I can use flexible cord where vibration is present (good so far).
Am I allowed to use a three foot extension cord or do I have to mount an extension box on the ceiling, run some BX down the angle iron and somehow mount a utility box and new receptacle?
That way sounds micky mouse.
What are your thoughts? |
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rabbitgun
Forum Magnate
USA
2035 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 17:25:26
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| I would say that the bracket holding the garage door opener can be equated to the bracket that holds your roll of toilet paper. If it can be removed with out compromising "the structure" of the said building, it ain't structure. |
An analog man in a digital world.
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 22:09:59
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Thanks,
That's what I thought.
Extension cord it is!!
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Mshea
Avid Member
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 15:47:45
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| Hey Rabbit. creative answer but the rules says a structure and not the structure. if a cord on an appliance is too short and the appliance is fixed like the garage door opener motor then an extension cord is not permitted. Extension cords are permitted to power portable appliances, devices etc. I know it is like picking nits especially if the cord is the correct size. There are ways to make the situation legal. extend the circuit with another box and BX from the existing to the new. There is also a pendant, extend the ceiling box or use a through the cover strain relief connector and use a listed flexible cord from table 11. Put a female cord end on the drop and suspend the cord with a kellams grip from the ceiling so that the garage opener cord can reach the pendant. The supply end of the cord is hard wired and not plugged in. Extension cords can never be used to replace permanent wiring. an extension cord has a male and female end. The pendant is hardly different from an extension cord in that it is or might be made of exactly the same cord. The code way is work for an electrician the other way is potential work for a fire fighter :-) An electrician gets a meter of #14 cabtyre and the homeowner cuts off a short section of his #18 extension cord and mis wires a new end on the cord. |
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Topic |
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Hard to find CEC Permission
