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| Subject - washing machine & GFI | |
| luckyshadow |
 question Why not require GFI receptacles for washing machines ? We are required to have them on spas, hot tubs,pools, garages, kithens ,baths, outside, basements etc etc. Why not on the big steel box thats plugged into 120 volt then filled to the top with water ? think about it. I've posted this on another forum also just to see what the general opinion is. Be smart and do it right |
| JimmyDee | I would imagine it is because even though it uses water we don't use it like a spa and get into it. I would say it is like a dish washer, water yes but no usually in direct contact with people. Jim |
| lctrc789 | A washing machine is grounded (or should be lol) However Hot tubs, spas, garage outlets, bathroom , outside, kitchen at the counter, crawl spaces, and where ever else you think a person can come in contact with a hot wire and the ground or near a water source that is groundeed or a person can become shocked. A washing machine is an appliance that you do not bathe in sit in water or have a chance of getting shocked. The GFI is for personal protection. |
| Ryan_J | The 2005 will require the washing machine to be protected if its receptacle is within 6' of a sink. |
| lctrc789 | I have heard this before and I don't think it is such a good idea but if it is code it is. I say don't install the recpt. close to a sink lol. But in many cases the recpt. is installeed behind the machine and no way to use it for personnel use but if it is then I say it must be GFI protected for sure. |
| Ryan_J | Pat: If the washing machine doesn't work on a GFCI, it is time for a new washing machine. Reccomended reading: See the 2002 ROP, section 210.8(B)(3). |
| lctrc789 | Ryan being a part time electrical inspector for a while and doing a small residential contractor work for the past 6 years with my 2 boys, I have learned that washing machines do trip GFi s and do cause a nuisnace for the consumers. I have found that in our plant and many of the buildings we have machinery welders etc running we do not use gfi on anything that has motors. The pharmeceutical company has many small 120 motors that run experiments for research and we do not install GFI s on any of these recpts, and they are labeled not for personal protection and not protected by GFI. As well as all 120 volts recpts for welders have been marked the same way. We have had many trips and had to many problems with these things since they were installed in 1987 I think. I think that the motors can cause enough problesm to cause GFI s to trip between the hot and neutral them selves and then when you have something grounded properly that does cause a small .7 or .10 milliamp surge which does trip the GFi s. We have even had IOSHA out to see if we have met or breaking any codes and had many meetings on this. they agreed that we could mark these devices as such and that motors can cause nuisnace trips on GFI s. I have seen this befofe even in homes, I have seen posts on this and this is something I have been in disagreemnet with many times. |
| Ryan_J | What about swimming pool motors? |
| Pierre Belarge | I have 3 girls with long hair  (and a wife with long hair  ), they use all kinds of "gadgets" for their hair in the bathroom. They have no regard for how they use these either. The blow dryers (I believe they have motors) are on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off, I think you get it. My GFCI has not tripped yet. If in fact they were tripping, I have enough confidence in the GFCI's today, that I would eliminate the blow dryer and get another, as this is much easier than replacing a precious daughter  Pierre |
| JimmyDee | Someone please tell me why when I shut my bathroom exhaust fan off about 1 out of every 4 or 5 times, it trips the GFCIs in the bathroom. There is nothing wrong with the fan. I would say inductive kick back and maybe its all in my imagination and not really happening. I'm sure if the washing machines won't kick out the GFCIs this will be a very good thing but it sound like some are having problems. Make sure you mount them high enough so the little lady of the house can reset it just in case it happens. I think they will end up being replaced with a non GFCI before too long. I just keep resetting mine. (but they are easy to get at) Jim |
| lctrc789 | I can see some small motors not having problems at all It is possible that the bath fan motor does have enough kickback to it to trip a GFCI. I do know this in the small community where I live we had people going absolutely nuts when the GFI s where tripping in their crawls from the sump pumps, and I have had people call the office on washing machines, and other motorized appliances. Motors do have induction and I have tested them at school just for kicks and giggles and have seen GFI s trip a few times. I still think IMO that some appliances fridges, motors, and things that people depend on and cannot get accesibly to these plugs for protection need not to be GFI protected, when they started putting garages on GFI s and folks who had freezers and fridges in their garages I have people damn near threaten to fist fight some of the contractors because they lost freezers full of meat and lost their food in fridges, I think it is not a good idea. |
| JimmyDee | quote: Amen, Jim |
| wireman | I found out that gfci's are very sensitive to nicks in insulation. I wired up some recessed cabinet lights in my mom's kitchen a few months ago. There was an existing flourscent light on the circuit downstream of the counter gfi (ugly light)and there was no other way to feed the lights without ripping out the cabinets and trying to run it from somewhere else so I thought no harm if the lights happen to be on the same circuit too, after all it had been wired that way for years already. The cans were very small and the j-boxes on the cans were very tight and the first light on the loop has the leg going in and out which made It even tighter. Adding to the tightness I wired it with 12/2. Well I got the splice into the first can and i guess i nicked the insulation getting it in. I got the lights wired up and they worked fine. Everyone used the lights that day turning them on and off and playing with the dimmer. Oooo Ahhh! they were working fine all day. Ten next day I was showing the lights to my wife fliping them on and off, dimming up and down and the Gfci tripped. I thought that's wierd. So I reset the GFI tried it again and it was working fine. I continued switching the light on and off over and over until "snap" it happened again! I thought this is really strange and I going to get to the bottom of it. So I completely disassembled the cans and found a nick in the insulation on ungrounded wire in the first can. I blame it on My romex sheathing strippers. I cut back the wire and rewired it up. the gfi never tripped again. |
| wireman | quote: |
| wireman | sorry i was trying to edit text mispelled "then". couldn't figure how to edit. |
| zapped208 | RyanJ,- A washing mach. would not have to be GFI., cause it is equip., and must have a single recep installed. Many people I know have their frezzers in the laundry area. Would you want your frezzer on a GFI and have it trip if you where out of town? Surprize Surprize! |
| Ryan_J | Zapped: The single receptacle outlet exception applies in two places: Garages and Unfinished Basements in dwelling units. There is no such exception for laundries in the 2005. |
| zapped208 | I still will not put the washer on a GFI.,or a gas dryer. I mount my W/D recep at 36" AFF so it is not seen. |
| Ryan_J | Why don't you submit a change to the code? |
| lctrc789 | I agree with the single recpt. idea and if you do have equipment or appliances plugged in to a single recpt. chances are slim that some one is going to unplug that and use it for their own use. It could end a lot of the theory that you have an extra recpt. there for use that should be or could be used outside or for something you could get shocked on. |
| zapped208 | RyanJ,- I do not know how. There are some other things I would change also. |
| Ryan_J | Zapped: Take a look at the last page of your code book, it contains the form and the information. |
| sparkie2170 | The sump pump is the one I don't get. The sump pump is designed so if you take on water it will keep the area dry. Not to useful when it's on a GFI. |
| stedder | might require a twist loc or some other not redily usable configuration on the washer, freezer etc. The manufacturers would love that huh, be like a dryer or range no cords supplied and everybody'd need an electrician to install their new fridge or washer, Hmmmm |
| Ryan_J | Stedder: There are no exceptions to this requirement. Twist lock receptalces will not make a difference. |
| Mike Delaney | Sparkie2170, Alot of the houses we wire in Colorado have a sump pump pit, but no sump, So some City's have ordanaces for GFCI protection, because it could be used as a general recept. I guess as long as they (NEC Code) keep requiring more GFCI's and AFCI's, that should in theory mean more revenue for a business, as long as everyone has to go by the rules, we'll just keep raising our prices. |
| stedder | Mike, that's what I'm sayin' if the code required a different plug config. the homeowner would be (less able) to unplug the washer or pump or whatever else may come about and plug in their power tool or radio!? I agree with the 6 foot rule though s/b treated like kitch or bath. How about switching in these locations? Unless you're using all plastic devices(?) the possibility of contact is there, runnin' yer hand under the water in the sink and turnin' on the light! |
| Mike Delaney | stedder, Absolutely, were does it end? There is defenetly alot of room for improvement. Unforuntely it usually doesn't come about until someone gets hurt. It all takes time, it will be interesting to see what comes of the future. Corse were writing it. |
| Wirenutz | edit |
| Wirenutz | What about swimming pool motors? very relevant Ryan... you mean the ones we can hardwire without gfi protection via 680.22? or shall we argue say, 50A240V poolheaters that can assume the same?? Where does it end Mike? conversley enough pool motors (at least the ones that were not hardwired) became one of the first gfi posterboy's in 1971, along with exterior receptacles, bathrooms added in around '75, garages in '78, spas & hot tubs in '81....hydromassage tubs, boathouses, kitchens, unfinished basements in '87, crawlspaces in '90, wet bars in '93, and a general tightening of parameters in later codes imho, the 02's "international" cover would have lived up to it's implied status should it have considered th european whole house system ~W~ |