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| Subject - pushmatic electrical panel....dangerous? | |
| inaisle8 | I'm buying a house and my inspector has told me that the pushmatic panel has been known to fail and could cause a fire. Has anyone had any experiences with these panels? Any help would be super helpful. thanks! |
| lctrc789 | inaisle8, The old push a matic type ITE breakers Yea I have seen trouble from them probably because they are very very old. I have seen many of them to this day in commercial buildings as well Is it 100 amp or larger? Is it suitable for the inspector other then the fact it is ITE push a matic. Want my advice, I say change the panel to a newer one you can add circuits to in the future, if you can afford it. Better to be safe then sorry, I have seen these panels for years and they do work and many are safe but never know if it is the breakers are old and not the right type of fault current etc.Best advice change it to what you want for future use easier for you and make the man happy at the same time. |
| JimmyDee | I use to call them Junk-a-Matics. On my service truck, back in the 60s and 70s, I carried 10 Push-a-Matics breakers in my truck to 1 of all the other brands because they failed that much faster. I don't think you have a fire hazard but I would change it out if it were me. Jim |
| inaisle8 | It is 100 amp. The seller had an electrician come out and look at it. I haven't seen the report yet (I will see it tonight), but it sounds like he thinks it is fine. Which doesn't really surprise me since I'm trying to get the seller to kick in 1500 to replace it. Do you think my arguement is valid that this panel is junk and potentially dangerous? |
| lctrc789 | inaisle8, I think that if it is 100 amp and the inspector states that it is adequate in size and meets the code, (i.e.) such as wired properly, right size wire, proper size breakers, and grounded properly etc. Then you probably would have a hard time convincing anyone that it is dangerous. I would change it if it were me because they do have problems at times, however trying to get the previous homeowner to change it based on an inspection that states it is up to code would be very hard to do. For your own sake and peace of mind change the panel for future use, if you want to add circuits etc, this would be more suitable for you at this time. |
| JimmyDee | quote: I would like to do one of these changes every week for that price. I would retire. Oops, already am.  This seems a little much for just a panel change. Jim |
| side-cut1 | I agree with Jim, if I can get 1500 to change out a panel of any kind I'd be a rich man. But I will say that if I had my choice I would change that panel out as soon as I could. I have seen a few of these breakers have some pretty good melt downs. I personally just don't trust them, my opinion only though. |
| inaisle8 | I was trying to get 1500 to upgrade to 200 amp...so with the panel and outside feed that seems reasonable...doesn't it? |
| JimmyDee | Yes, thats a bit better but why do you feel the home owner should upgrade to a 200 amp for you? Unless that is just part of the negotiation process. Jim |
| in2serenity | I use to do 200 amp service upgrades for $600 Up to 12 circuits. |
| stedder | 1500 is good, it's a day plus materials plus another 1/2 day non productive and most upgrades are more than 12 ckts anymore. And there is usually a small surprise in with the candy. |
| inaisle8 | well...I own this house now. I didn't make the seller replace the box...but I wish I had...at least met him half way on the cost. Most of the outlets aren't grounded and I'm still a bit sketched on the box. They had a electrician come by and look at it and he said it seems fine. It just looks screwy to me. He zip screwed a metal plate over one of the openings and the whole thing gives me the creeps. If I could find someone to do it for 1500 I probably would. |
| JimmyDee | quote: Do you live in W Michigan? I'll even give you a 10% discount. Jim |
| inaisle8 | wish I did. I'm from Wisconsin but reside in Oregon now. Know anyone out here? |
| nfsus | i wish i could get that much to upgrade a servcice. about 600-800 here. we broke in arkansas |
| kbsparky | >>...about 600-800 here. we broke in arkansas...<< No wonder you're broke. You ain't charging enough 
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| lctrc789 | Just a quick note on service panel changes and charges. 100 amp not over twelve feet from weather head to panel 60 to 100 amp service change is about 500. dollars, 45 more if panel is in wall flush, cost goes up to about 5.25 per foot for anything more then 12 feet. 200 amp panel same length and so forth 100 to 200 or 60 to 200 is about 725.00 and 6.75 per foot for each foot over 12 feet. As far as panel changes if VA or FHA they require 100 amp service minimum, as well as many conventional loans. FHA and VA require 2 circuits three recpts. minimum in each kitchen, microwaves, dedicated circuit. Many inspections done at time of realtor or insurance or mortgage comapny requests, check weather head, meter base proper grounds, proper breakers or fuses on branch circuits. Yes they will pass a 100 amp fuse service if not overloaded or doubled etc. As well as 200 amp fuse panels. (doesn't have to be breaker type panels). They will let us submit any type of problems we have had with certain type breakers or panels as well as any certain problems we see in wiring or devices that are unsafe. |
| kbsparky | >>...Yes they will pass a 100 amp fuse service if not overloaded or doubled etc.... Maybe so, but the Homeowner's Insurance companies are not. Look out for long time established homeowners getting letters of rate increase or non-renewal if fuse boxes are present instead of circuit breakers. We just did such an upgrade earlier this week. All they wanted was a 100 Amp breaker box. To satisfy the insurance company and avoid a 100% surcharge on their insurance policy. Seems that the insurance companies are finally figuring out that the proliferation of 30 Amp plug fuses on 15 and 20 Amp circuits is a fire hazard, and they are the ones who end up paying the fire damage claims. How many fuse boxes have you encountered that have the correct sized fuses installed on all circuits? I'd have to say less than 2% in my area. |
| frenchelectrician | the other thing about the pushmatic breaeker the repacement breaker cost is pretty high and i just have one comuster asked me to replace 100 amp breaker i say no it dont justify to just replace the main breaker alone that main breaker cost over 140 bucks alone i say better off just repalce with more modern breaker box and less thing will go wrong with it Merci. Marc
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| nfsus | We are broke here because that is what the market bears. cost of materials + 200.00 for labor. that is on changing a 200 amp 40 cir panel. not the sercive also. that is extra. most of the time it is a ite panel and it will be burned up |
| stedder | Actually I was referring to Remove old 30 - 100 amp panel, feeders meter, head etc. and installing all new components from point of attachment / connection to new 30/40 ckt panelincl all necessary splicing (obviously) plus surveys and inspections phone calls etc. Actually we start @1200 and go from there, although w/ col increases lately 1350 might be a better start point now that I think about it. |
| journeyman491us | ...I'm so glad to see inteligent discussions such as this topic...as well as the good answers posted. The old push-matic panel replacement is a good topic which I would like to add a few comments on. First off, this potential homeowner wanting to have this panel replaced is a good idea. I would ask my fellow electricians to ponder this issue from both sides of the coin...What would you do and say if contacted by the seller to put your proffessional opinion in writing? Would you say "yes it is perfectly fine, free of hazzards"? How would you approach it? Dealing with this situation on a regular basis (real estate brokers, sellers and buyers)personally I would not be quick to "sign-off" on this issue. I would tell the seller there is a legitamate concern because of the age of the panel, replacement parts issue and so on. My advice would have been to at least offer to meet the buyer half way. ....Might I be so bold as to ask how many electricians out there would change only the panel??? (Here in this part of the country, with the panel in the basement) The outside portion is just as old...and probably in bad shape. Is the outside cable or pipe? Do you really want to waranty a new panel with an old service entrance, place your professional reputation on someone else's work? I have seen many a "cheap-out" installations where two years later water and moisture wipe-out the main breaker and my first question to the homeowner is "who sold you on this??" Sometimes in our profession standing your ground isn't easy...but in the long run you are doing the customer a favor. Where do we draw the line?? With the push-matics or the FPE "No-trips?" People pay us for our training, knowledge and wisdom make no mistake about that... our work is their receipt. ...."Good work isn't cheap...and cheap work isn't good" |