|
| Ek's Home | Forum | Chat | Electrical Links | |
| Subject - GFCI Sump Pump | |
| David Hyatt | I wire sump pumps very often. I know 210.8(4) says all receptacles in crawl space is to be GFI. I use single outlet recpt. because if a GFI trips customer would not know and the water problem will go untreated. I use the single outlet because a GFI is for personal protection and I would not want to have them use the outlet for any other purpose. This would fall into the exception 210.8(2)ex(2) if it was in a garage. I did check with the AHJ and he approved my methods. Is there a separate code for sump pumps or did I just make my case with the AHJ clear enough for him to say OK? |
| cs409 | I would install the GFCI.. You can install some sort of alarm to indicate loss of power! Then again, if they are away and water rises, no pump........catch 22..... but i would follow code...best of luck. |
| David Hyatt | I understand, but what is the difference between basements having that exception and crawls. Or any other type plug in appliance? I know thats not what the code says. For example the vent fans I wire the recpt is far into the crawl space and no one will use it for general purpose because of the crawl. Would it make a difference if I installed a twist lock so it couldn't be use with a drop cord? The best thing to do is install a GFI I suppose. I was hoping the sump pump had a different code ref. |
| Ryan_J | David: I think its important to remmeber that GFCI protection for personel doesn't only imply that plugging a tool in is dangerous. There could be enough leakage current on the case of the sump pump to energize the case without tripping a typical breaker. |
| Ryan_J | Your AHJ is overstepping his authority allowing you to not have GFCI. 90.4 requires written permission and evidence of equal protection. What is the equivalant to a GFCI? I personally don't think that GFCI's can ever be "not required" if they are in fact required. Just my opinion :) |
| JimmyDee | quote: There are some exceptions under some of the other points but there are no exceptions on crawl spaces. We had a plumber in Muskegon Michigan get killed because of electrocution working in a crawl space. Bad drill got him. I would change it no matter what the inspector says. Jim |
| David Hyatt | Yea, I suppose you are right. I just hate to think I have been doing it wrong for 3 years now. And if something did happen even though the AHJ approved it I would be responsible. Then my other dilemma is that the company that installs the pumps and vent fans would be liable if the GFI trips and floods the crawl. I can't win for losing here. I do probably 20 of these per month. |
| zapped208 | What I would do is install a GFI recep for general purpose,in the crawl space,and than a single recep for the sump pump, of course on different circuits. JMO. This might be the way to do it Dave. I sure as heck would not want my place to flood out. Its not like the crawl space gets used everyday. |
| JimmyDee | Just talked to a friend electrical inspector and he suggested an appeal to the state electrical board. A GFCI breaker would probably be less susceptible to tripping because it is out of the high moisture area, but also cost $40 compared to $7. There doesn't seem to be any exceptions to the GFCI crawl space rule. This is one of the rules that makes sense but the only way around it and the tripping of the GFCI is to install a monitoring pilot light. Wish I could tell you different Dave. Jim |
| Ryan_J | quote: That still wouldn't comply with 210.8(A) |
| David Hyatt | Ryan, By putting them on a different circuit, they can use the GFI for general purpose, but the recpt on the pump is still not meeting code. Maybe somone could check old codes, I read something last night that suggested older code had an exception for sump pumps? Just for our knowledge. I also called the inspector back, this time the hardcore city inspector and he said use single outlet and that would be fine. That would not hold up in court though. |
| veganfan | I took the fundamental wiring course at IVY tech. In fact just finished it, and our book told us never put sup pumps. That it would do more harm than good the likely hood of a false trip could cause more damage more often than the need for GFCI. They quote the fact that a single receptacle is exempt from the GFCI rule. |
| Ryan_J | quote: Its not a fact. 
|
| JimmyDee | There is an elevator exemption where the sump pump is exempt if in an elevator pit and on a single outlet receptacle. This is the only exemption I see in the code for a sump pump.quote: Jim |
| zapped208 | I would still do it my way. I also do not put a sewage sump pump for basement bath rooms or sinks in unfinished mech. rooms on GFI's either, just a single recep. |
| SteveMc | David, I too never put a sewage pump on a GFCI, and never had one fail inspection. Most of the time we mounted the control panel either on the side of the house or on a post in the yard by the lift station inside a weatherproof enclosure. Is there any way to put the control box in the garage to utilize the single receptacle exception? |
| aussiesparky | I've just completed the wiring for a septic system at a relative's place DU. It too had a sump pump installed in it. I wired directly from the CB to the control box making the system part of the fixed wiring. No GFCI [RCD] no problem |
| David Hyatt | This is a very controversial subject. I searched the web under (sump pump GFCI) and they are many different opinions. But I suppose the fact remains code is code, maybe they will change it later. |
| cs409 | david, these sump pumps, what are the GPM and cost of the units please. p.s. also the distance they will pump and height also....thanks. |
| David Hyatt | Not sure about GPM, I will have to check. They install them and I wire them. I think they are 1/4 hp. Usually they only pump up about 1 foot then go outside maybe 10'. |
| SteveMc | Aussie, All the sewer pumps that I have installed have plugs on the ends. The pump has a regular 120v plug and the floats have a male/female plug that plugs into the receptacle and then the pump plugs into the float female side. This takes care of all the control wiring for the pump. The electrician just provides a 120v power source and any necessary enclosures. I generally run 2" PVC between the pump station and the control box to accommodate the plug ends. |
| veganfan | 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders. (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (1) Bathrooms (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (3) Outdoors Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level (5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. IF pump on single receptical and in dedicated space. Then would this not qualify? |
| Ryan_J | The exception you quote is for unfinished basements. Item number (4) has no exceptions. :) |
| veganfan | Actually this is quoted for both garage and unfinished basement. So would this mean if pump in unfinished basement you would not have to use GFCI, but if in crawl space you would? |
| Ryan_J | quote: Not really. By that logic, I could have snow melting equipment in the bathroom. Also, why would they have the same exceptions for two different items, such as 2 and 5? The exception to number five applies only to number five, not numbers four and five. |
| veganfan | Posted - 08/13/2004 : 11:19:08 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders. (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (1) Bathrooms (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (3) Outdoors Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level (5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. IF pump on single receptical and in dedicated space. Then would this not qualify? There is an exception in both places correct? Not trying to be illogical I mean snow melting equipment in bathroom crazy. A sup pump in an unfinished basement quite normal. A lot of unfinished basements have water problem. Sorry if I came across rude did not mean to thought it a lineament question. |
| Ryan_J | (1)Bathrooms....no exceptions (2)Garages....two exceptions (3)Outdoors....one exception (4)Crawl spaces....no exceptions (5)Unfinished basements....three exceptions (6)Kitchen counters....no exceptions (7)Wet bars....no exceptions (8)Boat houses....no exceptions |