|
| Ek's Home | Forum | Chat | Electrical Links | |
| Subject - Arguing with the inspector ...? | |
| kbsparky |
Someone recently stated:quote: I have had some moments with inspectors in my days. From one jurisdiction where they were so engrossed in bureaucracy -- they seemed more insterested in their paperwork than the actual job -- to others where my discussions (as I might call it) with the inspector actually resulted in more latitude in getting jobs accomplished. I find that where the inspection authority is a single entity, such as with some municipal employees, problems can develop with certain inspectors who take it upon themselves to find "violations" to justify their jobs. This is the type that tells you to "bring your note pad with you, you're going to need it" even before he sets foot on your jobsite. I have a real problem with this type of inspector who makes it his goal to nit-pick apart a job so he can say "look at all the violations I have found" or something of this sort. It is these types that make you want to leave an obvious violation in plain sight just so he can find something wrong with your work. We've had similar experiences with inspectors on Federally-controlled properties -- leave something in plain sight for them to find, so they won't go digging looking for something -- anything -- to fault you with.  In other cases, I have had intelligent discussions with local inspectors who have known me and my workmanship for many years. In one instance, I pointed out a Code reference that I planned on applying to my project in advance of filing for inspection, and literally asked permission to configure my installation that way. The inspector agreed that it would be permissible using those guidelines and I have been able to use those rules on many projects since then.  Prior to my discussions with the inspector, he may not have approved my installations in that manner, but since then, our jobs have passed inspection without incident. I can appreciate inspectors who call when they encounter what they perceive to be a problem, and more times than not, a simple explanation over the phone can stem off a rejection sticker. From being locked out of a jobsite, to an explanation of a non-standard installation, I've had the opportunity to clear up any problems beforehand. I'll give a specific example: We filed for a pool bonding and equipment inspection on a job, and the inspector arrived to find no re-bar, nor wire mesh in the proposed slab area. He called me on his cell phone, and I informed him that they were planning to use fiberglass reinforced mesh in the concrete mix, hence no wire mesh was used nor needed. We had installed a static loop of #8 bare grounding wire around the perimeter of the pool in the approximate middle of the slab area, tying in to the wet niche, hand railing cups, and ladder cups as it went around. He noted that was all in place properly, and put the green sticker on pipe riser at the equipment pad. Without the direct communication and good working relationship, we might have had a red sticker, and spent considerable time and expense before getting approval.  -Ken |
| blackrd | Its often said that you cant fight city hall, and I think the same applys with your inspectors. I wasnt refering to arguing as constructive communication with your local ahj. I was just reminded of the people who fly into a rage at getting red-tagged and dont try to build a mutually respectful relationship, then on their next job/inspection they are getting it again. No, they aint God, and they sure aint your friend, but they decide if you pass or fail. Ive found that most, not all, but most tend to reciprocate when you show some politeness and respect. If your on a job that gets inspected, your probably making something over $1000, probably quite a bit more. No need to get your bp up over $100 reinsp. I think everybody on bigger jobs leaves a little something undone, thats a trick passed down for generations and it works.
|
| Romex Racer | Inspectors are a problem. Lately I've encountered only very professional and construction savvy inspectors, but over the years I've encountered massive corruption, and over zealous beligerant scumbags bent on derailing my job. A favorite ploy is writing you up for one item, when they return to reinspect, they write you up for a second, then they return and write you up for a third... This ceased when I hired the inspector's brother! This inspector died of a bee sting about 10 years ago, too bad. Actually Ryan_J here at this site has increased my respect for inspectors 100%, most of the inspectors I've met had major ego problems or were jealous of how much us contractors made... Anyway... I learned a long time ago not to debate these fools, unless they're gonna cost me more than $100. I just wanna pass rough inspection, I wanna get paid, the GC wants to get paid, nobody cares about my epic struggle with the authorities, so I just suck it up and do what they ask... But as I mentioned, lately the inspectors here in Los Angeles have been excellent. Whoop! Whoop! |
| Wirenutz | I had always held inspectors as ambassadors of the NEC, i was even an IAEI member for over a decade But you know, after paying in dues alll those years and finding that they've really haven't lobbyed for licensure worth a s**t, kiss every manufacture's a**, and blow it all on gala 75th bashesmy original zeal has soured ~W~ |
| John A. Peters | I am a little bit shocked but not surprised at some of your dissatisfaction with the inspectors in your area. Luckily here in a big city, we have a much better situation. Inspectors here are well-trained and accurate. The reason this can be so, is in a big city with a dense population instead of all-in-one inspectors you have dedicated inspectors who are specific to one particular trade such as plumbing or electrical or framing. There are about 15 districts in the city in San Francisco and the inspectors are moved around among districts to avoid temptations of various types. That's a pretty clean and satisfactory to environment. They are relatively efficient and cover 10 or 15 jobs in one day between the hours of 9 and 2. Their other time is spent in the office with training and paperwork on the couple times a month in general meeting so that he individual districts get relatively even representation of the code. I am glad we have an electrical code because, how would I know whether or not it's OK to have 19 amps or 21 amps on a No. 2 wire and how hot is an okay for that wire to run. The engineers have it all figured out and it may not be that easy to read the code but it is there it is concise and it is available on a searchable CD. |
| Wirenutz | I really have no beef with any one inspector John, only the politicizied system they exist in. ~W~ |
| stedder | I find that if you approach the inspector with a respectful attitude, ask what he prefers if there is a situation and show a willingness to do things their way (even if it is a little different than anothers), if you have a legit difference of interpretation, start with "I've done it this way because I understood the article to mean..." and if his line of reasoning is acceptable, change the installation , especially if it's easily done. I do mostly residential work, additions, renovations, services etc. so any problems or changes are minimul in cost. Besides if you follow the code there shouldn't be problems. When I do have a question on how something should be installed, I call the inspector at his office, find out the way he wants it done and then I know there wil be no problems when it comes time. This also I think makes the inspector realize that you are willing to use his code interpretations, and is sort of an ego boost, keeping the inspector on your side. |
| Wirenutz | sure stedder; respect is the social lubricant of good biz (assuming the 3 martini lunch is out) which by rights works both ways ~W~ |
| Romex Racer | I wish I lived in the world you guys describe, just show respect and everything's peachy. Let me tell you about *my* world. Let's talk about Beverly Hills, where they try to discourage ECs not on their favorites list. In Beverly Hills, like most communities, you buy an electrical permit and pay for items such as outlets, circuits, panels, motors etc... So last year I'm wiring a large residential remodel in, you guessed it, Beverly Hills. The Inspector shows up and right away tells a framer "I'm a City Official and I'm ordering you to stop hammering"... OK, whatever, another badge heavy inspector, but my job is tight, I mean I'm solid, so I have nothing to fear, right? Well, this pompous bureaucrat swaggers around the job, can't really find anything, so he says "you know, your permit's not right, you didn't pay enough". "Oh" I say, "what do you mean?". "Well," replies Mr. Inspector, "You did not pay for any motors!" I told him I had no motors, he asks about the fart fans, aren't they motors? I wound up paying almost $300 in suplemental permit fees so he could inspect these "motors". Another day in the big city... Whup whup |
| stedder | I guess in your world (sounds exciting) that's something you have to figure into your price and get used to dealing with it. Or maybe use a little "social lubricant" and find out what it takes to be one of the guys on the good guy list. Some situations require you to swallow and some you can spit as long as the job goes smooth, gets done on time without the extras you describe and you get PAID. I do believe your world is different, I imagine Beverly Hills customers are completly different than Manhattan customers but they all have their little idiosyncrasies and ego trips. Ya gotta play the game, sometimes I find myself on the edge but then realize that this is the way people are and I'm not gonna change 'em so I finish up, (their way) get my check and move on. |
| kbsparky | Wow RR, things are really out of hand in your area. I could not imagine having to deal with corrupt inspectors like that on a regular basis. And I thought I had problems with my occasional encounters! $300 for a couple of fart fans? That's more than the fans cost themselves! That is abuse of power to the extreme.  |
| Wirenutz | Bueracracy is often self serving, but what does one expect living in today's oligarcy? ~W~ |
| Romex Racer | Hey Wirenutz, you might be on to something. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=oligarchy |
| Ryan_J | quote: Thanks RR, thats very kind of you to say that. I hadn't been reading this thread, so I'm a little late getting in on it. Thanks again |
| lbr enterprises | Maybe some inspectors are wannabee cops that never made it, so instead of giving speeding tix they nit pick jobs. LOL |
| electroman | Inspectors have one primary job. Enforcement of the NEC to limit damage to people and property. Depending on what rules/laws you may have wherever you are will determine the amount of interaction you may have with an inspector. For me it is real simple. I don't have to be liable for anything that is not code compliant. I don't get bribes, help, a raise, or any other form of compensation for accepting non-code compliant work (as a matter of fact as a contract inspector, it costs me time and money to write up jobs). However if I do accept a job that isn't code compliant, I just set myself up for a potential lawsuit. Do I need to explain any further? Another thing to remember is that if an inspector "let's it go", he hasn't done you any favors. Now both of you are potential targets for a lawsuit. Don't believe me, do a search on a search engine with the words "Electrical Accident", you will find that there are lawyers who specialize in suing people in the electrical industry. I would like to make another point. Besides protection of people and property, there is another consideration. Competition. Imagine if you as a contractor bid a job using MC cable because 334.10 and 334.12 wouldn't allow the use of romex. You don't get the bid because the guy who did get the job is going to use romex (because he is code knowledge deficiant), and either you don't have inspections there or a poor inspector who is going to "let it go". I have been involved in many of these scenerios and I always take the code compliant route. It is all I have for justification. I find as an inspector that the people that most lack KSA, are the first ones to complain about inspectors, and the people that have an abundance of KSA are happy we are out here to keep things at least on a code compliant level. |
| John A. Peters | I agree. Without inspectors and without the code, how would you know what was safe and what was not? Also the code (and the inspectors) give us a clear demarcation lines. For example 20.2 amps is not ok on #12 wire but 80% of 20A is ok. I liken it to the vehicle code giving us a white line down the center of the road. It helps all keep out of trouble. If you decide to tow your big boat or house trailer just 2 inches over the center line, is ok as long as the truck coming towards you is not a lumber truck with a wide load which is also hanging over the line a few inches. Electrical codes and inspectors make our job easier. It will make it good for you if your policy is "all our work is up to the minimum code". On the other hand, you do not get any credit for going above code, almost without exception. The built in safety factors are plenty, and if not then a room full of electrical contractors and engineers will talk it to death, put it to several votes and usually talk some more, publish it in magazines and so on, before the individual Cites get a chance to adopt it (or not). |
| Wirenutz | quote: Because they constitute no $$$ for the safety business here RR. Inasmuch as they are excellent fodder for our hyper-litigant society on a one on one basis, they pale by comparission in thier ability to hold the masses hostage as the service industry does. Consider that the root of all marketing falls under two subheading, fear & sex. We fall under the former, not latter (i'm guessing most of us fall somewhat short of advertising ourselves as the chippendale electricians here...) We , as well as our oversight and our many manufacturers, tickle the publics fear lobe into a dollar for a living. The many rationales that can be assumed all come back to this primeval lizard brain appeal , which has spawned a huge business in this country encompassing enough paperclips alone to build a bridge to the moon... Ask yourself, how many people does the safety biz make a living for, and you'll have an answer to why we are literally being inundated in beuracracy (not to mention our obese NEC) We could all easily be, as mere mortal tradesmen, ambassadors of the code couldn't we? after all if we've spent at least a decade gaining credentials and possibly the integrity of something slightly higher in regards to them than a rodents rearend why would we tarnish them right? not to mention being subjected to liabilities of door-closing-tared-feathering-shunned-flogged consequenses right?  ~Wire{vee doonn nnieed nooo estinking baadges}nutz~ |
| Briank | WE have Inspectors here In NC..Our Boss makes us walk with him/her..to make sure our rough in..or trim passes..we have some that are hard..and a hammer/sidecutters wont reach them.Mechanical rms in the basement..HVAC..in the way<as always>why should we fireblock our wires when there ducts..are below 7 foot?Its never going to be sheetrocked. |
| Romex Racer | quote: How would we know what is safe? Well I do believe in the code, for the most part, and I believe professional electricians would follow the code. Most professonals must adhere to standards but most professionals do not have their work inspected before the customer receives it. Doctors, lawyers and accountants do not have their work inspected by the city. Pharmacists do not have a city inspector signing off every bottle of medicine. Yet the majority of these professionals produce work that meets industry standards, all without the city being involved at every step. Why are these professionals allowed to work unsupervised and we are not? |
| INDIANA | By us we have an inspector that carries a badge like he is from the FBI or something..... No guys I'm not joking I'm 100% serious Hey lets face it I'm an electrican not a lawyer but last time I checked an inspector in Indiana doesn't have arresting powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But at the same time this guy is a real winner, I'm pretty sure this guy is an inspector because he couldn't make it as a contrator I don't mean to offend anybody because I know this isn't always the case.......... But to anwser the original question I'm a yes sir man until he leaves then I go ahead and do what I gonna do anyways The bottom line is the the contractor is the one thet is totally responible anyways. |
| Romex Racer | I had to laugh when I heard the BTK killer was a code enforcement officer. |