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| Subject - Use of 'back stab' switches/receptacles | |
| kringles |
One of my pet peeves is the use of the spring type back stab switches/receptacles. Reviewing the posts on this and related forums seems to indicate that most are of the opinion that these are 'unsafe;, 'an accident waiting to happen' and 'should not be used'. When I moved into a new house constucted in 2001/2002 I saw that all of the 120 V 15 and 20 A branches were terminated this way even though ther were the usual screws that could have been used. Note that I am not talking about the type of backwire connection that uses a screw/clamp mechanism to ensure a good connection. BTW all of the screws were in the fully 'backed out' position (note plastic boxes were used). Seems that in light of the above the use of these type 'back stab' switched/receptacles should be prohibited. If they are truly 'unsafe' why are they still sold, UL approved and per the NEC (as far as I know). If the installer doesn't want to spend the extra time to wrap around a screw they should have to use the better version of the backwire fastener. Of course the cost of the extra time or better switch/recpt would be paid by the customer. But IMOHO this would result in a better/safer installation. Any opinions out there? regards kringles |
| lctrc789 | I do not like to back stab any device and think that we should all practice what is safe and be careful at what we do. IMO I think all devices should be pigtailed at every opening and that would eliminate any problesm with conductors coming loose at any device. I know of course that will never happen as to the effect that back stabbing a device is a time saver but they sure are a nuisance when it comes to trouble. MY opinion I do not do it but I know many do because of the labor cist . |
| Wirenutz | quote: backstabbing is great service call biz isn't it? and now they've come up with pressure connector wire nuts for our future empolyment ! ~W~ |
| JimmyDee | quote: Total agreement. One word commentary on these devices. JUNK Jim |
| Romex Racer | I deliver electrical wiring with 2 types of quality. Grade A and Grade B. Grade A is for customers wanting quality and includes pigtailing and other premium features. Grade B is for customers wanting a low price and includes backstabbing and other cost saving features. Of course pigtailing is better, Grade A customers get it along with fewer recepticles per circuit, etc.. Grade B installations are bare minimum NEC installs. Every other industry on the planet delivers various levels of quality and charges accordingly. Items are sometimes labled Good-Better-Best. Restaurants are a good example, you would never send a burger back to the kitchen at McDonald's because you asked it to be cooked medium well and it arrived medium, but when dining at an up scale restaurant, you are paying premium prices and your expectations are higher as well. You don't make money delivering your best work. You make money giving the customer a job comensurate with what they paid for. In the old days if I ran some EMT along the side of a house I used to actually paint it to match their house! I realized that even though no other electrician did that, and that that made me the best electrician in town, people weren't paying for that level of service and nobody seemed to care when I stopped that practice. I used to be very obsessive about the quality of work I delivered, nobody could tolerate working for me, I was a control freak who was doomed to spend the rest of my life as a solo electrician, working alone, but doing great work that was way beyond what customers expected. In order to grow your company, you must be able to check your ego at the door and be able to deliver a CHEAP job when that's what your customer wants. Is this a "sub standard" job? Depends on whose standards you use. Most General Contractors want it CHEAP and FAST. They're paying for that and don't want to hear from you unless you have something to say that can make them money, like a Decora upgrade or something. Grade B all the way, wham, bam, thank you Mam! My prime customers and builders of custom homes pay more and therefore get more. Grade A it is. Pigtailing, metal boxes, attention to detail. I do 2 types of work: Masterpieces and Barely Legal. I know I've rambled on way too long, but IMHO, there is a time and place for backstabbing even though it is not the best practice. Whoop! Whoop! .........................RR |
| blackrd | Havent back-stab 20 ampere receptacles been off the market for several years? I know they aare prohibited in the NEC of either the newest or prior edition. I dont remember the last time I saw 20 amp backstabbers. Oh by the way, I think they are junk also. They are however perfect on those days you are hungover and minimal effort is the requirment. Call backs suck too, though |
| kbsparky | quote: From the "I thought I had seen it all" department, the other day I encountered some new devices which had been back-stabbed with #12 wire. Upon close inspection, it appeared that the devices had been drilled out so that the larger #12 conductors would fit into the holes!  Talk about spending more effort to cut a corner, rather than just install it properly!! Sheesh ... 
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| blackrd | You at the very least have to respect the ingenuity of the guy who did that. Who woulda thunk?.... |
| stedder | Wow Ken, imagine that drilling the holes bigger, can't have been a homeowner job huh, God I hope so. As for the backstabbing I WON'T do itand imho, don't think should be allowed to be manufactured as such. Sorr RR guess that's why I refuse to drop my quality and price (and I stay busy enough). |
| Romex Racer | At least I don't drill out the holes on my recepticles.  But that is thought provoking...
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| John A. Peters | Here in S.F. the inspectors want pigtales and then if you do that, back stabs are ok, since if there is a problem it will be limited to the single outlet. |
| Ryan_J | quote: Technically they would be a violation of the NEC, section 110.3(B). It is actually a listing issue. Nationaly Recognized Testing Laboratories, such as UL, ETI, CSA, Etc. will no longer list backstab 20 amp devices, unless they have a pressure plate to seat the conductor. :) |
| blackrd | Ryan, do you mean a pressure plate such as on a gfi receptacle? I was refering to a 20 amp recep that would actually accept 12 gauge through the holes, spring loaded like the ones that will accept 14 gauge. These are the ones I cant recall seeing in years. thank you |
| Electricman | I hate to admit it, but the company that I work for has always done the backstabbing on 15 amp circuits. Cannot convince the powers at be to do it otherwise Time is money they say, Gotta getter done. Once my employer went to a finish job with my crew and we layed all the pigtails and wirenuts in front of the recepts , well... he didnt use them...... I kept my mouth shut as this may have affected my employment status
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| Ryan_J | quote: Thats exactly right. The spring loaded ones are not listed #12 anymore. The pressure plates (like a GFCI) are. |
| blackrd | thank you |
| Wirenutz | great post RR, i appluade your honesty and must say in my state here where anything goes it's a chore to be Joe-Code 24/7... in fact, when i worked condo detail many moons ago the EC has it contracted for backstabbing (back before UL poo-pooed it), AND had the maintenence contract on the places he did to boot an excellent example of good biz smarts when cornered into class B situations eh? here's the WAGO pressure connections i barked about.... http://www.wall-nuts.us/home773.cfm  so here we go again ! ~W~ |
| blackrd | I have/had been using these. I thought they were a dream come true. I have since stopped using them, except in situations (see diy jobs) where the wire is to short in the box, cant pull new, didnt bid to replace,etc. Having heard comments about these in the forum, I have stopped using them. The Forum has made me a better man. |
| Wirenutz | well blackrd, i wouldn't use these everywhere, but in certain situations (as you desribe) , and maybe for changing out ballasts and yes, networking is a great boost isn't it ? ~W~ |
| Romex Racer | I've been experimenting with the walnuts and the ones made by Ideal, I'm currently using them on a new house and they do speed up productivity. A real electrician can wirenut just as quickly but the twisting wears out the hands unless you use a Makita. The quality of the connections seems good. My guys are not experienced electricians, I typically give them a 30 minute training program, strap a tool belt around their waist, declare them a "journeyman electrician" and shove them forcefully in the direction of a spec house or a big room addition. They take too long splicing wires with wirenuts but are much quicker with these walnut connectors. I'm still evaluating these connectors however... |
| Wirenutz | heh~ you're workin' memory lane for me RR truth be known many of us came up through the trades in said fashion i've been using Buchanan B2's for a while, they seem to have the widest rating/listing for the smallest space wirenut that said, i'd probably go with whatever i saw gained me some speed, with that ever prevelant callback ratio in mind hey, I'm an EC, i'd rather switch than fight ~W~ |
| ed | quote: |
| sparks27 | I finished up a job a few weeks back and recall those pressure connecters preinstalled in my halo can lites!! no call backs yet. I have to say they do make the make up go quicker. just strip,stab,fold and go!! |
| stedder | Must be me but I did a bunch of halo cut-ins just recently and cut off the crummy little things, re stripped, twisted and nutted. I dont want to have to go in after the furnishings are back in place and start pulling down guts (fron the cans).(MHO) I quit smoking many years ago, now it disgusts me to even think about smoking, that's the way I feel about stabbed connections. (sorry) |
| WELLSEROUSKI | COOPER brand residential switches, not outlets , have the clamp down terminals which speeds my work up and I have found their devices to be a bit more beefy than LEVITON which I have experienced problems with because if the wire coming into the backs of the switches is putting too much pressure on them they seem to deform enough as to have the internal contacts not touch enough in some cases and I get called back because of lights not working sometimes. And I put all my wires under screws. |
| stedder | Yea Wellserouski, I've had the same prob w/ leviton on numerous occasions no matter if they're wrapped (or not) I 'spose. One call back was about 70 miles away and I couldn't charge for it.
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| Romex Racer | Today one of my helpers trimmed out over 100 devices! God bless back stabbing! Puts money in my pocket! I can't wait until circuit breakers and light fixtures can be stabbed! You guys who refuse to 'stab need to come on board and get modern! Tonight when you are sleeping, I will creep into your room and place a giant pea pod next to your bed, when the morning comes, you'll be one of us! Whoop! Whoop! |
| stedder | There is beautiful music coming from just over the ridge...You're the devil  ... I'll never sleep again...
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| kbsparky | I used to be a "Leviton" man -- all the way, until I had several call-backs from switches that failed to operate. Most of them were 3-ways, and they all were side-wired. Seems that tightening the terminals nice and tight caused an internal cracking of the device, and subsequently they failed. I even have had the same problems with their GFCI outlets So, now I use P&S devices. They seem to be built better these days, nothing at all like they used to be when we call P&S a "piece of 'stuff" .. I have found them to hold up better than Eagle (now called Cooper) and Leviton, with very few failures or cracking. Their devices are made of different material (nylon VS hardened plastic), and the grounding hole does not break out from their cheepie receptacles like the Leviton did
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| blackrd | On this backstab issue, I have an article by an inspector somewhere. He was documenting voltage drops at receps in resi work. He found the lowest rate of voltage drops were at boxes where the wires were well made up and pigtailed. Very seldom did he note v drop at pigtailed connections. The next higher levels of v drop he found were when receps were wired using the termination screws for making up each joint. The worst incidents he found of voltage drop in new construction he found were shere the journeymen used back stabs to make up their terminations. He liked to hunt for this occuring, and wouold then decide if he was going to pass the job or not, based on how bad the v drop was, and how often it was occuring. I.E. a few receps or many, or significant drop at one location indicating a soon to be hot spot. |