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| Subject - Would like to change careers!!! | |
| hgreen0 |
Hello, I have always been intrested in becoming an electrician. I do small things around the house and so forth. I recently was laid off as a sales representative in the automotive industry. I have a couple of questions about the steps involved. 1. Where do you start out? 2. How long does it take to become an electrician? 3. I know the money is pretty good once you become a journey man or master electrician but what can I expect at the different stages in my career? (I live in CA and have a wife, daughter and mortgage) 4. Any sugestions or pointers on what the best direction I should take? any info would be greatly appriciated!!! God bless. |
| Romex Racer | What part of California? |
| hgreen0 | I live in southern Riverside County. |
| John A. Peters | You will have to invest in your self. Find an electricians school (nearest big city?) and go to school at night. Find some kind of day work or since you were in sales, you could sell your self as being willing to work for free for the first two weeks and than at minimum wage at a company for six months if they will put you with a journeyman and train you. A.Q. Find the best job description some where on line and post it here, and I will tell you the next step. |
| MONOLITH | quote: Work for free for two weeks, minimum wage for 6 months?? John, he said he's got a wife, a child, and a mortgage; and I wouldn't take that deal even if I was single and living with my mother. His wife and kids probably like eating and wearing shoes and being indoors at night. If the state of California doesn't pay electrical apprentices better than some migrant worker picking crops, he needs to find a new state first. Hgreen0, When I started out there were ads in the paper for 'electrician helpers, no experience necessary'. If you can't find anything like that, I would suggest drafting up a letter explaining that you would like to enter the electrical field, and that you are willing to go to an apprenticeship school. Mail that to all the electrical companies that do have ads in the paper even if they are asking to hire masters or other. Every company will consider hiring a good new apprentice, even if they aren't actively asking for that. Also go through the yellow pages, and send your letter to every contractor in there. Attach your resume, even though it's not electrical, with your letter. It might even be beneficial to actually go to some of those offices in person with your letter and resume, and see someone face to face. Personally, your odds are probably better that way, than with the letter, but still mail the letters. Your chances of being hired may actually be better than if you were more experienced if the company isn't actively hiring. They are more willing to hire a new guy with a good attitude and willng to learn, then some of these old timers who are set in their ways. Also, there are some apprenticeship schools that you can enter 'pre-employed' and they will hook you up with an employer. There is an organization called 'The Association of Builders and Contractors', or ABCI for short. They are a national organization with schools and a network of employers nationwide. They will train you, and get you employment. Look into them. I don't know if you are northern or southern cali, but here's a start.... Southern Cali chapter... http://www.abcsocal.org/page.cfm?keyPageID=657 Search the rest of Cali... http://www.abc.org/wmspage.cfm?parm1=2148 National home page... http://www.abc.org/ The pay will not be great at first. Most likely a totally green apprentice will not earn enough to support a wife, child and mortgage unless your wife works also, or you temporarily grab a second job. If you hook up with someone who does a lot of residential home wiring, many can pay you based on the amount of work you do (# of houses wired) instead of by the hour. You can make more money that way, working weekends and such. The electrical trade is a great one to get into provided you are motivated and take the necessary steps to move up with regularity. I myself have never been out of work in 23 years. I moved up into supervisory positions rather quickly, and always made good money. Also, while at first you need to grab whatever job and experience you can, do not allow yourself to be taken advantage of. Get what you can at first, but once you have a little experience under your belt, do not be afraid to watch for better opportunities/pay/benefits. Remember, you're out there for you and your family, not to make someone else rich that wants to pay you minimum wage. So open up that yellow pages, mail those letters, and hit the street and visit some of those contractors. You'll get a job. Figure out with your wife how to keep paying the bills while your earning 'new guys pay', and then do everything you can to advance yourself. Go to school, buy some books, look at educational materials available online, and always look up to the future. If you need any help or have questions, email me at MONOCORP@comcast.net. Best of Luck. |
| SR Scott | hgreenO, If you really want to be an electrician be aggressive. Ask everyone you come in contact with who they might know who either works for or owns an electrical firm. And be agressive if you get hired, run your but off, be early, impress everyone with your attitude. The money is another thing. As great as it is to be an electrician, most firms cannot pay you based on your level of enthusiasm. Practically speaking you'll be starting on the bottom and would have to work your way up. I don't know (nor would I comment if I did know) about your financial situation. That's your wife's decision. I will tell you that it is a great industry, usually with immediate tangible results (the light lights up) and if you get with the right company, not very seasonal. Good luck, it would in my estimation be a great career for most. Regards, Scott |
| CooCooMike | If you have a hard time getting work in the electrical trade you can always become a plumber. After all how hard can it be. Hot's on the left ,cold's on the right and crap don't flow uphill. Good luck. |
| Romex Racer | Framing's even easier. Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail. Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail. Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail. Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail. Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail, Measure-Cut-Nail. |
| CooCooMike | Didn't they ever tell you measure twice.It's measure-measure-cut nail. |
| Romex Racer | But seriously, Call the ECs from the yellow pages, look for ones with old license numbers (starting with a 4 or a 5). When I was coming up, I always worked for companies that started with an "A" since that's where I started in the Yellow pages. Try to find an old pro. I had the extremely good fortune of learning from a guy named Bud Burgess, he's probably retired or dead by now, best electrician that ever lived. We used to do these massive wire pulls, he'd do all the pulling, he'd shout "Red, Black, Blue, White!", I'd tie on a yellow and a green, then 2 feet back the wires he wanted, he'd pull like a steam locomotive, do all that work only to see yellow and green appear in the box, he'd cuss and say how he was gonna kill me, I'd yell "Keep Pullin!", then he'd see the colors he wanted. Too much fun. We used to work in the huge bakeries, when we wanted to take a break, we'd grab a handful of flour and tell Bud we needed some fresh air, then with a theatrical flourish we'd hold our fists to our mouths and "cough" blowing an impressive cloud of flour seemingly out of our lungs. He'd say "Yeah, you boys better get some air", we'd go outside and laugh like lunatics. I'm pretty sure he was on to us. I hope you have a much fun as I did. ..Richard |
| tunahead | Join a union,it will take about 5 years.The pay will be better and so is the training. |
| Wirenutz | it takes 7-8 years to make a master , assuming of course your state has licensure along the way i'd advise anyone that they really need to be thier own advocate one jem i'll pass on is, start a library, especially that which addresses theory ~W~ |
| MONOLITH | quote: Not sure if there's really any basis for claiming better training. Just curious what the actual data is to support that. Don't forget to to include in this information, the high likeliness of sitting on the bench unemployed for months and months at a time, but still having to cough up the dues money to be told you can't supplement your income while you're waiting for work. I don't think including that information when talking to someone like hgreen0 is an unreasonable request. He needs to know what he's really in for. You want him to have all the facts to make a decent decision, I'm sure. |
| Wirenutz | quote: maybe it's thier full page ad's MONOLITH ?? ~W~ |
| nfsus | hope you like heat and cold. I tell everyone that I talk to that it is either too hot or too cold. and there is nothing that can be done about it. Just like the post office. Neither rain nor shine.......... And i thought that framers didnt measure anything? |
| MONOLITH | quote: I apologize Wirenutz, I'm probably missing something you're trying to convey. I'm not sure if that's sarcasm, or you're trying to point out something I'm overlooking. So I'll just ask; what does an advertisement have to do with unions providing better technical education than non-union organizations? Sorry, if there's a joke that just went over my head.  I also want to add, that I'm not trying to be argumentative to Tunahead. I just think it would be unfair to simply steer a completely green guy into the union just to get another member, without giving him all the facts of reality. The guy needs a fair shake. He's got a wife, a kid, and established domestic expenses. Every one around me I know in the union is sitting on the bench, their kids are hungry, and some of them it goes on for up to a year. |
| greenelectric | hgreenO, Hey buddy, I had a flash back from my self when I read your intrest. I actually joined the trade just as you are trying to do know and know Im in my 7 yr. I was really fortunate to hook up with a great guy and took me under his wing for 10/hr. Of course I kick some ass once it comes to work and tackle a job, I listen and take a few beatings but its definetly worth it. My advise....talk with your family, share your q's with a local electrician and volunteer for a few week to get a feel on the job. |
| wandering sparky | hgreen0, I've been an electrician for 20 years , 10 of that on the non-union , the other 10 in the IBEW. If I were to do it all over again, this is how... Contact the Joint Apprenticeship Training program for BOTH Riverside (IBEW Local #440 ) and San Diego ( IBEW Local #569 ) and find out if and when you can apply to the program. Some locals have a pre-apprenticeship program where you can work while you are waiting to be either accepted or rejected from the program. ( Thats right , rejected, I'm not going to sugar-coat it for you. ) If they do not have such a program , look for work as a helper. Check the paper, unemployment office and local contractors. Heck , I remember getting a job once by just stopping by a job site and asking if the electrical contractor needed anyone. Now you will have both ends covered and a plan for getting that "on the job training" that you will need. As for the Union v. non-Union debate, don't worry about it for now. Certain people on this board are decidedly for either side. You need to get in to your training before that decision can be made by you. As for me , I am decidedly Pro-Union. Now get some books on theory and a National Electrical Code book. A current one would be best , but someone might lend you the 2002 code so you can become familiar with it. Other than that ... 1. Ask questions about the work you are doing. ( preferably during break or lunch) Contractors don't like mistakes or wasting time. If you are not sure of what they want , ASK!!! If you are curious about how something works or why it is done that way , ASK LATER!! 2. BE ON TIME!!! Show a good work ethic and an "old" journeyman might take you under their wing and mentor you. 3.And most important , Enjoy the Trade. If it turns out not to be you cup of tea, find something else. The only thing worse than showing up to a wet/dry , cold/hot , muddy/snowy/icy/dusty/humid job site is showing up to one to do a job you hate. I started out as carpenter's helper , then painter's helper , HVAC and drywall. I love what I do and would not pick any other trade. BTW, I am origionaly from Norco, CA. |
| fgw | And don't forget.... The way to be successful at whatever you do is to: do what you love & love what you do. Just a few words of wisdom from your 'ol Uncle Frank. |
| kiwisholland | hgreen0, nfsus had it right. If you had a indoor job before, make sure you like the weather. If you live in So. Cal, maybe this won't matter. But Murphys law holds true. The buildings will always be coming out of the ground in the winter, and you'll be in the boiler house or the attic in the summer. I love this business, but you need to be prepared. When I started as an IBEW apprentice, they gave us a two page form explaining the nature of the work and the nature of the enviroment you may be working in: Wet, muddy ditch work. Laying PVC coated 4" rigid with sweep 90's in the middle of an airport in the winter(no trees to block the wind). Of course you might also be terminating a PLC in a clean room at an electronics company. Some guys that started the "program" when I did, quit. Some guys showed up the first day in khaki pants, button down shirts and loafers with only a multi meter in their pockets. Some guys quit because the work hurt their hands. Some guys hated the outdoor work. I am not tougher than anyone else, I just new I was going to be working CONSTRUCTION. So just be sure you know what you are in for. As far as the IBEW/ABC thing: I dont' want to get it started again, BUT... I went to both IBEW/NECA and IEC/ABC schools. I started in the trade working for a non-union contractor. He sent me and others to school because he had to as far Labor and Industry was concerned for apprentices. The ABC school I attended had some great teachers, but the program was not as comprehensive as the IBEW program I graduated from. I italicized attended and graduated because I only attended the ABC school for 1 and 1/2 years. So maybe it got better later in the program. For a guy starting out, with a family, go with the IBEW/NECA apprenticeship. If after X number of years, you find the union is not for you, move on. No one can take your education from you. I worked Union for 10 years and never missed time until the end of 2005. One of the things the non-union guys always said was that union guys always miss time and they have to pay huge dues, etc. When I was working non-union, I saw an ad in the paper for the union apprenticship. Now, I was raised non-union, my family is from North Carolina-the most anti union state. I had no idea what to expect, so I asked all the guys who worked for my nonunion employer what I should do. Almost all of them said the same things: don't do it, you'll be laid of all the time, you'll have to pay these massive dues. One man, my foreman, who had worked for the company for 25 years, and was only making $16 an hour, said that I should definately go for it. If he could do it all over again, he would have gone union. I was making more than this man when I was a third year apprentice. Also, I averaged about $1400 a year in dues. Which works out to 70 cents an hour for a 2000 hour work year. I made at least $15 an hour more than non-union guys around here. You do the math. That said, I have become increasingly disenfranchised with the Union. I am going to withdraw at the end of this month. That was my experience in the suburban North East. Monolith had a completely different experience down south, and in big cities. You made the right first step by doing your research. You can have a great career as an electrician, if you know what you are getting into. |
| jcarl | just a quick note to add to the union/non union debate...... all dues are a tax deduction,i have been in the trades for 20 years union and non union there are great people on both sides of the fence you just have to find out whats best for you.I believe as a group of electricians we should all stick together and support the betterment of the industry,in my state its o.k. for a homeowner to pull an electrical permit, but don't you dare do any plumbing!!! |
| kiwisholland | Here where I live, the state does not require electricians to be licensed. But all hairdressers MUST be licensed by the state. I agree about getting along! |
| MONOLITH | quote: Kiwis, can you elaborate on something... In this paragraph, you seem to be praising the union membership because of your higher wages; but in the next sentence your disenfranchised and leaving it. There's two conflicting messages there. What happened in these latter days? Thanks. Also, there were times, once I moved up to PA from Fla, that I thought to myself "maybe I should get into the union up here, strictly for money reasons." But when I saw how the locals were using illegal intimidation tactics to squash small honest guys trying to start businesses, I couldn't join and support that with a clean and healthy conscience; not even for a little extra cash. |
| kiwisholland | Hey Monolith, I tried to temper my remarks about the Union/Non-Union thing, because, what I know of you from this forum, I have respect for you. I am aware, albeit not personally, of some of the BS you have had to deal with in the Philly area. I have heard it from numerous other people. I also got to read your post, before it was censored, in the Union/Non-Union post, and felt that with editing, it should have stayed. I am not a member of the local in Philly and until recently have never had a negative experience. My post on the Union/Non-Union post explains my current feeling on the Union. I just feel that for a guy with a family, especially in California, hgreen0 will be better off starting off in the Union. I don't know hgreen0, but he will make a better living faster in the Union. Not all local unions are bad. I have nothing against non-union shops or workers, I just had to maximize my earning potential. I also worked both sides of the fence. I don't mean to offend you, but I don't believe you ever worked Union, right? So you can't really generalize that all Unions are corrupt because of the rotten experience you had when you arrived in Philly. If hgreen0 is looking for opinions, mine is simply this: Go through an IBEW apprenticeship, get that education, and if he feels the Union is not for him, then move on. There are pros and con for both sides of the fence. Of course this is all just mine opinion, everybodys got one right? |
| kiwisholland | After responding to Monolith, I went back and read my post in the Union/Non-Union posting. I still stand by what I said over there. I felt that posting was for business owners or guys thinking about going into business. In other words, guys who have experience in the trade and know the union debate. I figured that hgreen0 is truly "green" when it comes to the trade, and doesn't need to worry about that debate until he gets some experience under his belt, as stated by wanderingsparky. Sorry if I was sending two messages. |
| Romex Racer | The union is the best route for a guy who wants to be an Electrician all his life. The money is very good and the bennies and you will get to work on some amazing projects, very stimulating. The brotherhood is a nice aspect too. If you want to own your own electrical business non union is the best route. A union electrical contractor has a very limited market because of the high hourly rate of union electricians and there is a mountain of paperwork involved too. It's not very easy to become a union contractor, and the work force can sometimes be problematic. A union contractor does have the hiring hall to draw man power from and that's nice. There are some bums and alcoholics at the hall but 95% of the guys are top notch electricians. The non union electrical contractor has a hiring hall too, it's called Labor Ready. I pay them $16 an hour, they pay the worker $7 an hour. I spot the worker an extra $4 an hour cash on the side and they feel appreciated and will work. Mostly hispanic, I've hired 100+ over the last 3 years and only one could speak english. Anyway, I'm getting off track, If you want to be an Electrician, go union, if you want to be an EC, non union. I'm pretty sure this is a reasonable approach. Party on! ............Richard |
| kiwisholland | My sentiments exactly...... |
| MONOLITH | quote: No worries, there just wasn't an apparent reason why you were leaving it. But after your last post, the message I'm getting is it's because of starting your own business, right? Also, just to be clear, my impression of the union isn't just from the Philly area. I had my exposure in Florida as well. One of my former employers down there was very active in the political side of things, getting involved with state legislature and such, which of course was the direct opposite of the bills and laws the unions were trying to push through as well, as well as different congressional candidates etc (which opens up a whole 'nother Republicans vs democrats thread). I also dealt with some union contractors on large jobs there, things like Iron workers and mechanical. I saw how iron workers intentionally destroyed my slab pipes, and how mechanical guys intentionally ran pipelines diagonal across a wall to take away my available space to mount disconnects, etc. Little annoying cr*p like that. It wasn't until up north though that I experienced the physical threats and such. In Philly the union is a little more 'old school', and in Fla the IBEW has fairly weak representation, it's a 'right to work' state. Romex Racer, I have dealt with the temporary labor pools as well, when I was running large commercial jobs. I had lots of bad experiences that way. Remember, there is also the method of hiring guys like HgreenO, that you can pay the same, and train to your liking. That's my plan. |
| wandering sparky | quote: And some of you think union dues are a rip off. |
| Romex Racer | Keep in perspective what you get at Labor Ready, it's no comparison to the skilled tradesmen at the local union hall. At Labor Ready you basically get an illegal alien with forged documents. They don't speak english and are illiterate in their native tongue. They come from countries where $1.50 an hour is good money and you'd be glad to get it. At the union hall, you have a very highly trained skilled craftsman who can read and write and work without supervision. At Labor Ready you get a warm body with the comprhension and mechanical aptitude of a German Shepard. I like to use Labor Ready guys when I get a job with repetitive tasks. Dumping fluorescent fixtures in T-bar cielings, prefabing fixture whips, drilling and roping in spec and custom homes. When I get a big house, I get 2 LR guys, I give each one a right angle drill and show them how to drill studs and run romex to a box. I'll nail up 3 boxes, and then have them each run romex an connect the boxes. I'll do make up and safety plating if needed. With this system I can be EXTREMELY productive. I do the important, but easy work: mounting the boxes and making up, they do the dull and difficult work: drilling and roping. At the end of the day, I'm still fresh as a daisy. I do the same with TI work. I use ENT because the LR guys can't seem to properly cut and trim flex. |
| MONOLITH | quote: Yeah, I really dislike the 'Day labor guy' thing. I'd rather pay some young kid who wants to learn the trade, a bit more $ than that; and have someone I can train, utilize that training the following week, and know what I'm getting everyday. But I also admire Romex Racer's system, because I believe he avoids all the hassles, both administrative and personal, involved in having a full time employee. I think the labor company even pays all their insurance. RR's got a solid plan. I would follow suit, I just don't want different drunks showing up every day, giving my clients a bad impression of 'my company'. |
| Romex Racer | I had lots of problems hiring and training the neighborhood kid type. Sometimes they'll call in sick and try to break into your house when they know you're at the job. They'll steal tools. They are very interested in how much money you're making, you can see they smoke coming from their ears as they figure parts costs and determine that you are in fact, a millionaire.  They are from the generation of instant gratification, the notion of paying your dues is foreign to them. They want big money and have an exaggerated sense of their worth. They are special darlings who have never been criticised. Once you criticise them they will become sullen and withdrawn or argumentative. I grew up wanting to be like John Wayne, they grew up wanting to be Michael Jackson. Crawl under a house? You gotta be kidding! They will try to make deals behind your back. They will even print up business cards and hand them to your customers. They have no sense of decorum and will talk about the most unsavory things in front of customers. Nope, I've had all of that nonsense I can stand. I like a LR guy who'll keep his mind on his work and just do what I ask. No drama. |
| MONOLITH | LMAO. I can't argue with any of that. 
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| wandering sparky | quote: Personally , I think they should put tool theft Right up there with "horse thief". The are taking something that put food on someones table and a roof over thier head. BTW , ran into simular problems with the "Labor Ready" types aswell. And there are a few local unions that have thier share of of thieves. I just can't see why one would do that. I guess I can blame my parents for raising me with some morals. |