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| Subject - Union/Non-Union | |
| kiwisholland |
Okay, I'll start it! ;) Maybe this needs to be posted elsewhere? I just wanted the opinins of the guys on this thread. I am a member of the IBEW. I discussed why in another post. I took a layoff from my long time employer to go into business for myself, which may be career suicide(I'll discuss this later). When my awesome health care benefits run out in about 9 months, I will take a withdrawal from the IBEW. Opinion on Union electricians: I have been a foreman in the Union for a number of years, and have had many types of employees. I also worked for a non-union outfit before joining the union. There are many many many good hard working men in the Local, many of whom I would hire today if could afford to. And I might do just that. But, there are also many bums who have no interest in the success of the contractors. They can't see how more success for the contractors = more work for them. I wouldn't touch these men with ten foot lengths of uni-strut. The system has ways of weeding out the good men and keeping them employed. No matter what anyone else says (at least in my area) the union has more highly skilled men than anywhere else. The non-union contractor I worked for used to hire men from temp agencies, and many didn't know a conduit bender from a 9 iron. That said, I can't have my future dictated by a GROUP of men. I want to be in control of my own destiny. As I write this, the local I am referring to has over 250 men "on-the-bench" or out of work. That is nearly 1/3 of the membership. Since I recently took that layoff, I am at the end of that list. It will be YEARS until I would be called out for work. This leads me to my next opinion: Opinion of the Union itself: I used to joke that I paid $1400 dollars a year for a magazine. The $1400 refering to my yearly dues. 70 cents an hour. I personally never had any need to deal with the union as I was always steadily employed. Over the course of the last ten years, the IBEW's main goal has become "Organizing". Get as many men as possible organized in to crank up those dues! The problem is that now, the local I am referring too has way to many members. 1/3 are layed off. But don't forget to pay your dues. Many men have been off for 14+months. Of course they are required to continue paying dues. When I went to sign the out of work book after taking a layoff, the first question they asked was if my dues were payed up. Also, one of the organizers sometimes sits at a local supply house trying to catch guys "moonlighting" or working for a non-union contractor. Never mind that these men have families to feed. And oh yeah, are your dues paid? I can't personally comment on some of the strong arm tactics I know Locals like Local 98 in Philly supposedly employ. I have no experience with it. But I have worked with owners and project managers for non-union contractors for other trades, that have discussed their hatred of unions because of the way they have been treated by union contractors and unions themselves. I am by no means Jimmy Hoffa. I do like the idea of letting the market decide. But the Union did give me an education, and afforded me the opportunity to make a great living. They also paid for my first Masters License. I am just ready to move on. As with any hot topic ther are good and bad to both sides. Lets hear some opinions! Please, lets discuss! THANKS!!! |
| MONOLITH | "Non provable allegations. DELETED." You edited my post without even the decency to mention it to me, or PM me. And part of what you removed clearly showed bias on your part. You didn't remove 'non provable allegations'. You removed comments about aspects of the union you undoubtedly know exist, and worst of all, you censored my personal opinion, even removing the 'american dream' sentence. Sorry, but that was biased censorship, and pure BS. I'm done here. |
| JimmyDee | quote: My call and since I just did it along with some other things, I was about to e-mail you but it looks like I don't need to. When we make allegations of local anybody's being on the take and have an identifiable city and union local, I will delete it on the spot. If Scott wants to allow it, so be it but at this point in time, I will not. Jim |
| Ryan_J | I have seen some great work done by union and non union electricians. I have also seen some terrible work done by union and non union electricians. quote: So long :) |
| kiwisholland | Sorry to ignite this whole scene. I thought we could have a civil discussion about this. I was not offended by Monoliths remarks and I am a member of a union. Any other comments would be appreciated. Thanks |
| MONOLITH | *4 HOURS LATER* I actually do understand. And JimmyDee, I apologize for the heat of the moment frustration. While some may have to disagree with my perspective, I do think it was a well written post explaning my position, so I'm sure you can understand my frustration at finding it tampered with. Also. I'm an admin at several other sites, so I'm used to being the one doing the editing; it's not pleasant to find yourself suddenly under the control of someone else. I do understand the reasons for not indicating specific entities, locals, cities, etc. Yet, the supposed 'non provable allegations' can all be found in local newspapers for years. I am also quite certain that deep in your own hearts, you know what I say is true, you simply cannot publically take that stand with me. That's ok. I do understand. You also have to understand, that if I make a statement like "unions can stand in the way of free enterprise and a fair competitive market", and that is edited out, I have to wonder about the bias of the editor. I have no idea if the staff here is union or not, but you can certainly see my skepticism after having more than just specific names edited out of my post. So, quite honestly, I'm not sure how to comment in this thread anymore. It would seem, like I assumed beforehand, that this topic might just be better off left alone. I now regret prodding Kiwisholland into starting it. I should know better. If I cannot freely voice my opinions against unions here, and my history is to be labeled 'non provable' then there's no point in trying to have the debate. Regardless, I do fully understand your position, and why you have it, and again, I apologize for my part in this incident. I'll try to carry on in a less controversial manner. 
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| Scott Vickrey | Monolith, All posts on this forum found to be inflamitory will be deleted as was agreed upon during registration. Regardless of their point of view, in this case pro or anti union. I read your post earlier and was struggling with how to deal with it. Jimmy was right to act as he did. Although we are not obligated to contact anyone upon deletion of a post by agreement. We normally do anyway. Please accept our apologies for not contacting you. Also please keep in mind that this forum is still very young and we are learning the best way to deal with these sensitive topics. We value your opinions and expertise but if any topic or post seems to be strongly offensive we have to act before it gets out of control and not after. This site is meant to benefit all electricians union or non-union. We certainly do not want this site to serve as a battleground for these strongly opposing view points. |
| JimmyDee | quote: If someone wants to start one here it will be closely watched. If it gets nasty or name calling, it will be gone. So far this site has be one of the more civil sites I frequent and I and others appreciate that a lot. Our aim here is to continue to keep it civil. I'm sure Scott will not prohibit that topic on this site, but that topic tends to get wild and heated from both sides, rapidly for some reason. Jim |
| ohara7 | as far as being a contractor for the performance of electrical work you are in violation of the IBEW constitution. i was a member of local 666 and went to a class on opening a union electrical contracting bussiness i started my company and tried to get the bond that was required per the agreement and was turned down because of being a start up bussiness. i was in constant comunication with the bussiness manager and he tried to get me to give him a cchesk for the $5000.00 and i told him if the comtract was changed to say that instead i would gladly do so but the contract stated a $5000.00 surity bond placed with the local NECA chapter. I couldnt get the bond 1.5 years later " out 800.00 in application fees. then I get a letter stating that the assistnt bussiness manager was filing charges on me for violation of the IBEW constution articles 26 E,F. went to the trial board and was fined $5200.00 so i quit the IBEW and im not happy with the fact that its who you know as to wheather the IBEW looks the other way I just took a job with verizon and on the bulitan board was a flyer for a local 666 member soliciting electrical work my question is shouldnt that person get charged as well? so beware if you belong to the IBEW and do side jobs or any other electrical work you too could be charged. I hope this does not get cencerd i dont think there is anything out of line just the facts.The mission statment of the IBEW is "To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada. including all those in public utities and electrical manufacturing,into local unions; to promote reasonable metods of work;to cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry; to settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration( if possible);to assist each other is sickness or distress; to sucure employment; to reduce the hoursof daily labor; to secure adequate pay for our work; to seek a higher and higher standerd of living; to seek security for the individual;and by legal and proper means to elevate the moral,intellectual and socal conditionsof ouur members, there families and dependents, in the intrest of a higher standard of citizenship" I welcome any coments as to this statement and to all IBEW members hold your BA acountable every time your layed off. for long periods. |
| Doug Wells | Monolith said I am Done Here :( I do mostly residential service work and Quality Reno's etc, So i really haven't much input for unions as they wouldn't be competition. I have really enjoyed reading your posts monolith and this business forum sure became active and better when you joined :) IMHO I sure hope you you can continue to post your business experiences and input here Thanks Doug |
| MONOLITH | No worries. Although I sternly stand by my original, confiscated post, I did apologize for my part in the incident, and agreed to carry on in a less controversial manner. "When in Rome....." So I'm still here, despite Ryan's apparant glee at my departure. |
| Ryan_J | Oh, I have no glee at your departure. I was just telling you so long if you were leaving. |
| Doug Wells | Ryan Should understand that being in business can be stressful at times :). Probally gets more stressful if you try and fool the inspector though :) |
| MONOLITH | quote: All's well that ends well then. Cheers. Pheeew. What a day..... |
| Ryan_J | quote: I understand plenty. I work 45 hours a week as an inspector, and I also teach nights and Satudays. I understand! :) |
| MONOLITH | Ryan, I used to teach 4 nights a week at a college Vo-tech. And two seperate year/level classes, which made even more to keep track of. I ran large commercial crews/projects from 7 to 3:30, then I was in school teaching from 5:30 to 10pm. 5 years later the burn out hit and I quit the teaching. It's definately quite a handful. The money was okay, and the social aspect was enjoyable, but now I prefer to be home at night with the family. |
| John A. Peters | I do not see any reason to say oops. We are here to help each other. I work hard to find good questions to ask, (Well maybe it is not really work since I enjoy it more than doing the bid that I am supposed to be dong) that will lead to productive discussions, and cause others to jump in and share the knowledge they have from years of experience. Thanks |
| MONOLITH | quote: I think money was big factor for mine. I had a pretty wide age spectrum, from 18 year olds up into the 40's, guys who just made a career change. The younger all felt more money should come quicker. They all thought they knew it all and deserved raises. They're usual comments would be silly stuff like 'I do more work then my foreman, I should get more money'. Trying to get them to understand the blood, sweat and tears that go into getting to that level was something none of them would apreciate until they put more time into the trade, IMO. Also, some of the real new apprentices never realized electricians had to dig out in the cold. They thought it was all cushy, just putting in switches etc. quote: Half of the time, I would just put the books down and teach about useful and relevent things they would see on the job daily. The books were good to teach them theory, and how to disassemble a squirrel cage motor, but I think they apreciated being able to understand the processes that went into the day to day building of a job. The book work just didn't teach them the practical stuff, the actual way in which a foreman went about running a crew, interpreting plans and specs, building the job, managing materials, etc. I actually wanted to initiate a curriculum that would focus purely on 'how to build a job', but I left teaching before it materialized. It's still something I think about though. quote: I don't know if I would fully support that. Teaching them how to find their way around the book is definately important, but having them be able to interpret what they find once they get there, is more important, and often more difficult. I can show them where the wire fill table is, but once you're there you still have to be able to explain it to them, so they can use it on their own the next time. |
| JimmyDee | quote: I know this question was directed to someone else but let me have a go at it. In Michigan, I would have to answer, both. You will not pass the exam if you do not know the code but the have enough questions that even Ryan would have to look up. The person that knows his way around the code will fair much better because of the time element of the test. You are given 1 1/2 min for each question and that does not give enough time to look up very many answers. Also have enough general knowledge questions that have to do motor control, and math that it keeps it unpassable to someone that just comes in off the street with no training. Jim |
| MONOLITH | quote: Oops, sorry John. After seeing Jimmee's post I realize how you really meant the question. I read it too fast and thought it was still a teaching question. 
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| Scott Vickrey | Sorry there folks I asked John to start a new topic and sent him his text to do so. You guys where already responding when I deleted johns post in preperation for it's movement. I will move your responses when john reposts. I was shocked to see 3 replys already 
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| John A. Peters | You have to get up early to catch the wave. |
| Russell120 | Well we seem to be discussing unions and inspectors all in one thread. Something for everyone to get riled up about. North Carolina is the least unionized state in the union I am told, and I can confirm that you rarely run into unions or union activity. However, when you do, it is of a very confrontational nature that seems to antagonize people who don't seem to have any opinion one way or another. What I know of their strategy does not seem to be effective to me. Oddly enough, I was told recently that one union contractor in our area went non-union because he could never get any help. I think their presence here may be so small, that there is nobody on the bench because they don't even have a bench. Around here the temp. agencies are the closest thing we have to a bench. And many of their people are very good. I have no idea if the union people are better electricians overall. One suspects that they don't get the "part-timers" in the mix, but other then that, people are people. They do have the advantage of a more consistent education process, but what people get out of an education is directly proportional to what they are willing to put in. That being said, non-union crews can also full of people who could care less about the company they work for. I suspect it is your field level leadership (foremen and superintendents) that make the greatest impact. Not whether they are union or not. Studies across many industries have shown that the greatest impact on a work groups productivity is the quality of a its immediate supervisor. Most large organizations have problems with "internal politics" and self regulation. The fact that the unions are large organizations are both their strength and weakness. What the place of the unions will be in our global economy is unclear to me. However, better control and self regulation would appear to be items of concern for them. |
| CooCooMike | hey guys just to put my 2 cents in.i am a union elec 5-years now in boston got laid off in nov. at #875 now i am around #700 will probably be out over a year and 25 years with a ticket what do i do i have a family to feed to ,so it is side job city for me there are over 1100 on the book now |
| ibatramp | electrician for 28 years,{5 years union}. have worked a grand total of 7 weeks in the last 22 months out of local 5 in PA. if it wasn't for side work my family of 5 would have starved many months ago. currently over 600 on the books,{i'm around 185} |
| MONOLITH | I have to ask, what is it that makes you stay with the union, when being made unemployed for that long? Is it the retirement package? In 23 years of working for non union shops, I was never out of work a week, unless I wanted to be. |
| ibatramp | presently looking for employment elsewhere. once i leave the union i will never ever ever ever go back to the union. i'm just looking for decent wages with some benefits right now. most non-union outfits pay 12-14 per hour around here.i have a hard time working for that. |
| CooCooMike | 20 years non-union and still not much to show for it,except experience.Joining the union got me introduced to a new breed of guys.New types of jobs,bigger jobs.Was a foreman at Logan Airport,had the whole top floor and 8 guys under me.Had to wire electrical rooms,elevator rooms,roof ac units,working with pvc in the slab,3/4" - 4"emt-galvy it was great.Wish I joined 20 years ago.The pay is great,medical,annuity and good retirement.Unemployment pays about $575 per week and a few "side jobs" plus the wife works part time. |
| MONOLITH | quote: I just want to point out that union is not a requirement to find that situation. I don't want young apprentices to get the impression that they can't find that type of work unless they join the union. I was 22 years non-union, and my resume has hospitals, nursing homes, movie theatres, office towers; all of which I was the foreman or superintendent for the entire project. I built this place...  That's a 15 story medical office building with a 5 floor parking garage, and on the left is a 3 story nursing home. $2 Mill in electrical work, 18 months. I never sat on a bench for a year, I will never pay dues. I always had health insurance, 401K's, had a vocational education paid for, raises, bonuses, vacations and even great christmas parties; and now I own my own company. 22 years non union, and I have an incredible career to show for it. |
| CooCooMike | Well I walked down a different path in life,but all I can say is that I love doing electrical work ,all kinds,big small and everything inbetween.By the way nice work |
| MONOLITH | Thank You. I just want to add, that while I posted that rather hurriedly last night, I hope I didn't give the impression I was trying to be antagonistic of your post. I surely wasn't. I just wanted to clarify to those who may not be sure, that you don't necessarily have to be in a union to find this type of work, or find good benefits, good pay, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of that has to do with geography. Certainly in certain parts of the country, there is a trend towards unions holding all the large commercial work, and non union shops tending to be smaller companies, with smaller work and less 'opportunity'. I'll avoid going into whether or not I think that is by design, and accomplished through improper practices. But there are plenty of opportunities to expand on ones career, in all aspects of the industry, both union and non-union. A lot of it comes down to the drive of the individual. If you are unable to find what you are looking for in one area, have the courage to seek it out somewhere else and it may pay off. As it did for you. |
| CooCooMike | Well my run is not over yet(I hope). I am 46 and still have plenty of years left to leave my mark(hopefully not my charred remains) on this planet we call Earth. So I will keep playing with electricity and getting paid for it. God I love this country. |
| renosteinke | I suppose that when you're up to your neck in mud, it's hard to remember your plan was to drain the swamp! I have mentioned elsewhere that I have Marxist sympathies...Groucho Marx, that is. I'm not so sure I'd want to belong to any group that would have me as a member! I will, however, recognise the areas where a union could make itself useful, to the benifit af all. Organizers seem to focus too much on the "evil company," and not know what to do with a good firm. In many cases, unions only come about because the company has serious management problems to begin with. That, however, is not the place for tomorrow's union to focus. Whenever there is a truly large job, it is almost certain we KNOW who the electricians will be. Oh, one or another company may get the job- but they will need lots of wrench-turners, and the losing companies will provide them with layoffs! A Union, with its' hiring hall, provides a sensible way to move workers from job to job. (Maybe that's why we're called 'journeymen!") Trade unions have developed excellent apprentice training. Not only does the employer have some assurance of what he's getting, but the tradesman leaves the job with more than his hat in his hand- he has a union card listing his qualifications. One need only visit some of the other forums to view the results of untrained and self-taught "electricians." I must be either the healthiest -or sickest- person on earth....almost all of my life I've been on "probation" for various benifits. Right about the time I "qualify," I move on to another job. With the IBEW, you take your benifits with you- which is no small thing these days. A union can provide some stability in expectations. Outside the union framework, simple things -such as what tools you need to have- vary greatly from shop to shop. Especially early in the trade, tool expenses can be significant. Different employers have differing practices. Is there a short break in the morning and afternoon, or do we skip the morning break, and take a longer one in the afternoon? With a 'shop steward,' a man can question these sort of things without instantly being labled a "troublemaker." On the downside, Unions do have their flaws....most can be traced to "the abuse of power is always in the right hands." I don't see near enough agility in the way Unions approach work and technology issues. Too often, they manage to offend without need. But nobody said life was perfect. So we shouldn't demand perfection from them, either. Oh, and don't anyone think I'm some sort of Union thug...All my life, the Union has been quite happy to tell me that "I'm on their list, and progressing nicely." At this rate, I'll be retired before they invite me to join their apprentice program 
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| wandering sparky | I guess I can throw my two cents in here. Monolith , I am happy you made you 22 years with so little layoff. I know several Union men that can claim much the same record. My wife recently has developed a simular additude towards the Union as you have. I guess she has forgotten I was making close to $100K a year when we met , which is over double what I made when I was non-union , even in my best year. Sure I have had long lay-offs, On one right now. But they will soon end and I will be back to twisting wires. Even this year , I worked maybe 3 1/2 - 4 months , and earned around $32K. Not bad for a part time job. As for that time off, I have used it as best I can. I had the summer off one year. Laid-off a week before school was out, went back to work 4 days after school started again. Spent the whole time with my step-kids. We had a great time. I guess what I'm trying to say is, once you are adjusted to the highs and lows , you deal with it. No , its not for everyone. But I enjoy my career now better than I ever did when I was non-union. I guess when people get that " what have you done for me lately" attitude, they forget what they have. Like weekends , overtime , health insurance , ect. But if the unions were no more, we all would still have that, wouldn't we? |
| MONOLITH | I tried to make an honest post just now that would explain why I am disenchanted with the union; but I fear that there's no way to do it without being censored again or 'causing trouble'. A shame, actually, that we can't openly debate this issue and be honest about facts, documented history, and personal experience. Ironically, that sort of repression of expression, and the truth, is one of my problems with the union. |
| wandering sparky | quote: I do understand what you mean. I have worked in many different locals and seen a lot of good and bad. Sounds like we had simular experiances, just from opposite sides of the fence. As I said in another post, I have work on both sides. The Union side was much better for me. Alot of lies , mis-truths and "fugding" with data has been done from both sides. It is up to the individual to choose where they stand. 
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| Scott Vickrey | I believe the value of this topic to be great. It might be alot of peoples sole source of information on the topic. I hated that we deleted Monoliths post. This was our mistake because it was not saved and returned to him for possible editing. It was long, informative and took time to produce. However, I also feel we have to strike a balance in these sensitive areas and we are still new to this new media source and it's management. Striking any post made here goes against the reason for this site, Making more online information available to electrical professionals. Just try to maintain the spirit of this site as helpful and positive. You can say negative things here just try take the edge off of it a little. You will find that this site does not envoke editing or deletions very often. I would also like to mention we should recieve some credit for all the spelling and grammer edits we make, while there are still many "typos" in this forum, there has been a ton of corrections to blatent errors made without complaint.
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| MONOLITH | quote: Duly noted. I did notice Jimmy appearing as the 'last poster' in many forums late at night, yet when you clicked on the thread, he had not posted. That meant he was in there editing something. Some tracks can't be covered. Kudos to you Scott, it's a great site. I know the the union debate is occuring in another thread as well; I'm trying to keep the site's interests in mind when I post.
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| JimmyDee | quote: The only thing I change is a damn or hell here or there. I have never change the content of a post, only an inappropriate word or 2 and sometimes an obvious typo and I might add with Scott's blessing. You will see the same thing happen to the most recent post if I even move the thread from one forum to another. The problem that came about with your post was one of not being able to retrieve it. Some miss assumptions on my part made it totally irretrievable. This problem has been corrected on my part and I can assure you or any other user of this site, your posts are about as unaltered as you will find in this type of forum. Jim |
| MONOLITH | quote: I'd be happy to re-write it...word for word. Just teasin'. All's well that ends well.
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| rabbitgun | All I ever really need to know I learned in Kindergarten 1. How to color within the lines. 2. How to wait for my turn. 3. How to play well with others.  
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| JimmyDee | quote: Sure does cover a lot of it, don't it. Jim |