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jimmy
Avid Member
USA
105 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2009 : 07:11:04
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I have a remodel in a basement.The cement block walls are ground potential so I must install gfci protection. I was informed that the rooms will be used as bedrooms so I must install afci protection. My question is will the two units be compatable? And which do I feed from which? Or will it matter? Actually only panel breakers are available for arc fault now so I would have to feed afci to gfci. Please,in all your wisdom,give me an answer that will make sense to my undersized brain.
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John A. Peters
Forum Magnate
USA
1852 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 09:57:51
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| IMHO AFCI then GFI will be fine. Prove it? Can't yet |
Same Day Service 415-239-5393 SF Electrician SF John A. Peters, San Francisco CA www.BrooklineElectric.com/ |
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macmikeman
Forum Magnate
1428 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 12:24:32
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| 210.8 (A) (5) UNFINISHED portions of basements gfi required. Unless you have a local ammendment in your area, gfi protection is not required in finished portions of basements block walls or not. But anyway, afci breaker and downstream gfi work just fine, except there are some reliability issues with certain brands of combination ark fault breakers, plug in style. Nuisance tripping issues, not related to improper neutral sharing, multipoint neutral/ground connections, or damage insulation. Just lousy breakers. Without slamming any brands, here is my tip, Seimans seem to not have problems from my own perspective, while another widely used brand does. |
F--- em all but six son, you need six to carry the coffin..... |
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Ron Foster
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 12:39:35
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| macmikeman is correct; GFI not required. I recently finished three eight story 28 unit condo towers with 3-4 AFI breakers in each and have not had one call back for the breakers. The brand, for reference, was G.E. |
"Sometimes it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" |
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macmikeman
Forum Magnate
1428 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 13:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Foster
macmikeman is correct; GFI not required. I recently finished three eight story 28 unit condo towers with 3-4 AFI breakers in each and have not had one call back for the breakers. The brand, for reference, was G.E.
Ge is another brand I have heard is ok, I don't use them much myself but I hear they do not have much issues. Sooooooo........ that leaves................... and ............... as some brands to be aware of that in the combo breakers may have reliability problems at least at present. |
F--- em all but six son, you need six to carry the coffin..... |
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jimmy
Avid Member
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 07:23:33
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| Yes I understand that "finished" basements are exempt from gfci. My problem is a wood frame wall separating the cement block walls. I still have cement block. So if I put a receptacle on the block wall I am gfci. If I put one on the frame wall I can be afci, but the whole thing is a bedroom. So afci feeding gfci will cover the code issue? |
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kennydmeek
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 14:05:19
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| Did a remodel in a house with CH BR main...couldn't use GFIs downstream from the afci's as they tripped constantly.(the afcis) The inspector said where I had to have a GFI I didn't have to have an afci. Wouldn't work anyway in this particular case. |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 09:13:36
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Good Grief.
Maybe we need a new type of breaker:
AGFI
Arc-Ground Fault Interrupter. |
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kapakahi
Avid Member
USA
251 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2010 : 09:35:19
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| Kennydmeek, I think the inspector was wrong. Does he have the authority to remove the requirement for the AFCI? Arc Fault does not do what Ground Fault does. Totally different concepts. And, they are not meant as circuit breakers, either. There is the problem of nuisance tripping. Siemens has some new products out that are good. |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2010 : 08:31:07
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You could move the house to Canada.
CEC#26-710(e)(iv) only requires that at least one duplex receptacle to be installed in an unfinished basement. It is not required to be GFCI unless it is next to a laundry tub. |
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RS377
Forum Magnate
USA
1009 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2010 : 10:39:20
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| The sad thing, all afci's have a GFCI device in them, however, according to Ryan J, however it isn't as sensitive as a standard GFCI. |
Taught well
----Full time contractor May 18th, 2007 |
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macmikeman
Forum Magnate
1428 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2010 : 02:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by RS377
The sad thing, all afci's have a GFCI device in them, however, according to Ryan J, however it isn't as sensitive as a standard GFCI.
Yea, I was going to tell them the same thing. GFI = 4-6 milliamps. Ark Fault - ground fault detector circuit set to approx 30 milliamps. Combo Ark Fault breakers may or may not employ this circuit at all, so far nobody is fessing up. |
F--- em all but six son, you need six to carry the coffin..... |
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RS377
Forum Magnate
USA
1009 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2010 : 08:10:47
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| I am curious as to why the sensitivity isn't higher. |
Taught well
----Full time contractor May 18th, 2007 |
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Mshea
Avid Member
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2010 : 15:26:30
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Macmikeman You have missed one and mis identified 1 GFCI is a Ground fault Circuit interrupter and trip around 6 ma. A GFI is a Ground Fault interrupter and May have an adjustable trip according to what is protected. A GFI usually trips by a maximum of 30 ma. This breaker is used for things like heat tracing where the 6ma current is too low for reliable operation. Usually these are only available as a breaker as an outlet requires the 6ma max trip current to be compliant with the life protection requirement.
AFCI Breakers have a ground fault element in the protection scheme but it is set at 30 ma like the GFI. You estimators might notice that the cost of AFCI breakers is lower than GFI breakers and probably are thinking this might also be a good choice for protecting heat tracing circuits except that the AFCI breaker is not certified as a GFI device even though the listing of AFCI breakers included the Ground fault protection as a requirement.
So recap
GFCI 6ma
GFI adjustable or set at 30 ma
AFCI set at 30 ma
AFCI devices are compatible with GFCI devices.
Note that if a load fed from a GFCI outlet does not trip and the AFCI breaker ahead does the trip reason is not likely to be a ground fault. |
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bytemylobster
Avid Member
Canada
414 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 23:10:44
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Actually, I only run a circuit for the bedroom and place a AFCI breaker on it.
Lights and bathrooms are separate from this.
Anything else is MUTE |
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gfci and afci
