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| Subject - ESI | |
| kiwisholland |
Can we start a discussion about ESI here. I know some of you guys came from that board. It seems like no one will talk about it, I just catch bits here and there. Did you have to drink the kool-aid or something? Any and all info would really help me out with my new venture. Thanks! Bob |
| ecarbine | k, Did you join ESI? I went to the intro seminar that they had in Vegas and I liked everything that I heard, my one problem is the cost of being a member, I am a new start up and I dont have that kind of disposable capital. |
| John A. Peters | Since you asked. I too liked the sales seminar, but I can not see going such a radical change this late in my carrier, not to mention the costs. I miss the camaraderie with other contractors, the training and the extensive knowledge base. I wish it had been available earlier in my carrier. You can see their web pages here. http://www.youresi.com/advantage.aspx IMHO my take on the "ideal" formula seems to be: A name that evokes the company logo i.e. "The Red Cross" ties in the name with a vision of the logo. You must be one of the top three companies that a consumer thinks of (or looks up) in an emergency. This means a full page or two full page yellow pages of ads that contain a bunch of good reasons (like drug testing) as to why you should go with your company, including photograph of a person, and a cartoon graphic. A web page where you can get an appointment. Full uniforms, with a spare in the truck. The company provides laundry service and new boots to new employs. Full medical and dental and performance bonuses and vacations, holidays etc., so the good men stay around. A two week sales and flat rate training for new men. Flat rate books, in person phone reps, full stock in trucks big enough to walk around in with large graphics on the side. Your arrival should be an event that the neighbors will envy. What else? I do every bid, the engineering, and meet the inspector at the end. I make slightly more $dollars sole owner taxable profit than the IBEW pays a man but not including fringe benefits, plus my gets paid too so together we make equal to IBEW pay including fringes. I have a full time person in the office and 3 electricians. My wife works about 20 hours and I try to hold down my hours to 40 but I seem to go over when it is slow (more bids to do). I want out of the middle. I will be looking at flat rates and sales training for my new man. Next question!! |
| kbsparky | I received a telemarketing phone call the other day from Mr. Electric wanting me to sign up with them. One of the things they told me was that they were the only nationwide franchise available to electrical contractors. I told them that was not true, and asked them if they ever heard of ESI? Of course, they played dumb with that response, since I suppose it was not on their list of canned responses. Do you think that the folks over at ESI would be interested in contacting the Mr. Electric folks and ask them to cease and desist their false advertising? |
| John A. Peters | Maybe it would be better to talk to Mr. Electric folks, interview them and then write down what you learn from what they have to offer and share it with us. If they offer a nondisclosure paper use a funny signature and paraphrase the ideas and concepts. According to the e-Myth revisited we need to build a model of a business, and document it so it can be replicated every time you hire a new man and setup a new truck. Pretend that you are going to turn it in to a franchise, by working on the business not in it. Patrick did that and ESI adopted his business as a role model. Does any one have a start of an operations manual for how a service job and truck man runs his little mini business, that we can co-edit as an open source project like they are doing in software now a days? |
| Mike Delaney | What is ESI? |
| John A. Peters | ESI stands for Electricians Success International. Definitely not a rollup, not a franchise, it costs more than a college degree, but it has some elements of all of those. I liked (and miss) the commodore that I felt at the one day seminar in Vegas, in September 2005, except that we have some of that here. It was developed from Plumbers Success international (PSI), Contractor 2000 and AirTime 5000, which all can be goggled. Look here http://www.youresi.com/advantage.aspx for the ESI web pages, and talk to me here. They offer the opportunity to become a millionaire, as others have become, by concentrating on the residential service and emergency markets, and a way to escape from the competitive bid to the general contractor, part of our trade. You do have to be committed and follow instructions. They limit membership to the first 500 contractors in the US market. They are very helpful and many have been successful and they will vocally attest to the fact that it good, and it works for them but of course it may be expensive for you. Members don't say much you can judge by. Members are prevented from talking abut what they learned their by a non disclosure agreement. They said on stage that they sue people who give away their trade secrets, and that they did not intend it but the suits has become a source of income. I did not join, as I am already doing fairly well in a specialized market here in San Francisco, which is old houses and condo conversions along with some service call and emergency business. I am reading some of the books used by ESI or written by ESI founders. |
| kiwisholland | John, How much do they charge? Nexstar, which is what Contractors 2000 became, have different levels of membership the least expensive of which is $5000 initiation and $3000 per year. After that its five fiqure territory. They don't seem as Jim Jones/Kool-Aid about, either. Also, what are some of those books you mentioned? Thanks, Bob |
| MONOLITH | Hello John. Per your suggestion, I followed you here. I hope to be welcomed. My continued thoughts about ESI or any organization that promises to teach you to be successful for a substantial fee is... I didn't pursue this career, or start my own business, to take my money and give it to someone else to make them more successful. And it's an understatement to say that much of the same 'education' you're asked to pay dearly for is widely available through forums such as this, and a hundred others. I was a successful commercial construction superintendent for years, I was an apprenticeship instructor, and now I started my own company. I have always been a self starter, a self educator, and have always succeeded at the things I set my sights on. Personally, I have a sense of pride in accomplishing these things on my own. I do not feel that I need another electrical contractor to tell me how my logo should look, what my ad should say, or what color my uniform should be. Especially for a rather substantial fee, continuing weekly. It's one thing to offer assistance, trade knowledge and experience, and stand up for each other within our community and industry. It's another to feed off of your fledgling peers trying to make a go of it. There just strikes me to be a major difference between the Mike Holts of the world, who, while still making money, seem to be giving to the community, and something like ESI that wants a big piece of all your action. I think it's something about the sincerity perception... I mean, are they really concerned about you, or have they found a good schtick to line their pockets from you. That's what bothers me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel at the moment about that whole trend. |
| John A. Peters | Welcome here (and there) Yes we can help each other. I am going to open a topic on "Parts list" as my current area in need. |
| Doug Wells | I would like to welcome monolith also. I am registered at the other site as electricguy. Since the so called Major crash at that site i sort of got a little leery about it. The info seemed to have stopped and The reason i signed up for the forum was the review that i read in a EC&M article.To Me I think the first forum was just to gather info about us to be able to easily market to the users.. |
| John A. Peters | No - Actually, I talked to Patrick semi privately, at the Vegas promo in September, and he said that he started the Electrician Board site before ESI contacted him. I believe him. As someone else said, Patrick's hart is in the right place. The ESI speaker on the stage in the afternoon, said that they had been "watching Patrick and Mister Sparky's operation for (I think it was four years) a long time. I personally think that when ESI saw him start his electrician board, they figured it was time to ask him to help them promote ESI and it has some synergy. On the other hand, the owners of ESI are the ones that write on their promotional CD "Only listen if you are ready for: Market Dominance...etc. (financial independence freedom of time.) IMHO for the right personality and at the right stage in business, ESI can be a wonderful, and enriching system. They have lots of successful members. |
| MONOLITH | quote: Thanks Doug. I do want to add, two hours later, that my first post may have been a little stronger worded than I really meant to. Yes, I have no doubt that ESI has indeed helped small electrical contractors to improve themselves and become more professional. I have even spoken to at least two of them. But it still reminds me of one of those real estate mogul commercials you see on TV at 2 am. "Buy my tape, I'll make you a millionaire". I stand by my feeling that there's something bothersome about having a third party dictate so much of what you should do on a daily basis, and extract a large amount of money from your company while doing it. I guess it's basically like having a partner in your company that has more experience than you, and you pay them part of the profits. I'm just one of those guys who never wanted a partner. I don't know. Maybe I just have too much stubborn pride. But I do know that the overall theme from ESI is how to improve professionalism and presentation to extract higher fees from homeowners. I really don't think it's too hard to educate oneself on how to do that. The resources are out there to be found. Personally I think I am fortunate in that my long career of dealing with large general contractors and projects exposed me to a lot of 'professionalism'. I was involved in project management and learned a long time ago how to present and sell myself. I must be doing something right, because I only started my company 3 months ago and today I'm signing $18,000 contracts. It just seems to me that the things they are selling are the basics of common sense; - Clean shiny lettered vehicles - Nice uniforms - Professional looking logos - Advertisements with 'key phrases' like '30 minute service', 'talk to a local master electrician' - Cleaning up employees to look more presentable - More professional looking, and adequately functional, paperwork Don't we all sort of already know this? Actually doing it, is what seperates the successful from the unsuccessful. Again, I could have the wrong impression, I did not attend one of their pep rallies. And I suppose they should get the benefit of the doubt, particularly because some people that I do respect have spoken highly of the organization. Yet I cannot escape this one feeling; That someone who wants to sell me miracle success information, for a high price and continued payments from my company, and threatens to sue me with a gag order, has actually just found away to make himself wealthier, using other electrical contractors. Doug, I also got turned off to the the other site, because every question posted was replied with "Join ESI and we'll show you the answer". Every reply became a commercial endorsement. It was also noted by others that the supposed crash, and consequent removal of helpful info that ESI now sells, was a bit suspicious. And think about this... ESI claims it will limit itself to 500 contractors. For a moment, forget about the initial upfront cash that equals several thousand per contractor. Isn't the weekly payment $200? Do the math. That's $100,000 Per week. Hhheeeeellllooooooo. I don't know for sure what the upfront is, but it's several thousand. Even if it's only $2000 (and I think it's more), that's a cool million right there. And just for the record, I doubt any member could actually verify the number of other members. I mean really verify. Planes overbook tickets every day. Why couldn't ESI. Seems like a huge cash making machine to me. Are they really in it just to help you? I could easily put on my website, something like "send me $35, I'll explain how to get an $18,000 contract after just 90 days in business". But, do you really think I'm truly interested in some other guy's business in Minnesota, or am I looking to make some easy cash? |
| aline | As a new company starting out I would like to see how well I can do on my own without joining an organization such as ESI. If I were to join from the beginning how would I know if I could have been just as succesful without joining? I would not know if the payback on my investment was worth the expense. Also with my current capital and financial situation I cannot see how I could fit the expense into my budget at this time. I believe that you can learn a lot by watching companies that are members of these organizations and see how they advertise and market themselves. Look at their phonebook ads etc. In my area there is a plumber who is a member of PSI. I have been monitoring his company for quite some time, before I knew he was a member of PSI. I have always felt that he had a very effective marketing campaign and want to emulate it. I am in the process of finishing my basement and I'm considering hiring him for the plumbing work. This will allow me to see how he answers his phone and the wording he uses in his phone script. I will get to see the greeting script his technician uses when greeting the customer, how he presents the price and what kind of forms they use. I will be getting the work I need done plus gain some business information too. If you want to see how the companies that are members of these organizations present themselves to the customer why not hire one to come to your residence for a service call? Like Monolith said there is a lot of good free information available. You just need to implement it. Subscribe to the magazine "The Successful Contractor" it has some good information in it. The website is www.thesuccessfulcontractor.com The plumber I refer to is featured in this magazine. Also a good book to read is "The E Myth Revisited" by Michael E. Gerber. |
| MONOLITH | Bruce, you expanded on my point perfectly. 'Observing' what others are doing around you, and paying close attention, combined with some research through several different available medias, can be very educative, and free. I know who the big players are in my area, I see their full page ads. I see their catch phrases. I see what I think is working for them, and I also see where I think they have some shortcomings, which I then intend to improve upon in my own ads, etc. I don't need to pay another Electrical Contractor in another state a huge downpayment of cash, plus $800 a month (forever?), to be told those things, or to have someone on telephone standby to tell me if my latest invoice style looks professional enough. Maybe I would feel better if it was a one time course and fee, like going to a Management seminar or such. Maybe it's the signing into the organization, to pay a weekly fee 'til whenever, and be threatened with a law suit if I turn around and help anyone else. Maybe that's the part that ticks me off. |
| Russell120 | I would be very wary of programs that use the "group sell" method, and the "we will make you rich if you pay us" crowd is also a very sketchy bunch. Monilith's remarks about verification are absolutely on the mark, but can be expanded on. How do you know their members are successful? Certainly they aren't going to tell you otherwise. The members who join and spend this money aren't going to get up in front of their peers and say "I got burned". Obviously if they have the money to join the network they also have the money to buy adds and trucks and nice uniforms. But the fact that they look good does not mean they are actually making any more of a profit then the other business. They are simply better capitalized so it looks that way. It is a very common tactic of shady franchises and multi-level marketing operations to use a herd mentality on their members. If someone isn't successful with their system its because that person is not doing it right, not that the system is flawed. And you have this whole group of people reinforcing this notion on each other. Of course what they say has an element of truth. But the service tradesman model of business has been around along time. And it is also true that as technicians, tradesman often aren't always the best businessmen. But that is a far cry from having to shell out thousands of dollars to someone to tell you how to run a business in what is a very mature business. There are tons of resources for small business people costing very little to no money. It simply takes time and effort to track them down. I doubt that ESI has anything much to offer outside of group support at their rallies. |
| MONOLITH | I agree Russell. In fairness to Patrick Kennedy and ESI though, I just want to clarify that I am not insinuating ESI is shady. I just wanted to point out why it's not for me, and what things people should be aware of when dealing with such an organization, like not being able to know if they really kept it to 500 members. I have actually conversed with Patrick Kennedy at another forum. He did seem like a nice guy, wanting to help others. One must always be somewhat skeptical though, when someone is making millions 'helping'. Certainly there is some conflict of interest in deciding when you've had 'enough help'. But I do give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, I know another contractor who did Join ESI, and is very happy he did, and I respect his opinion. So just to be clear, it's not my intent to claim ESI is somehow 'no good', I have nothing tangible to base that on whatsoever. My posts are more aimed at stating why it's not for me right now. I've always been the cautious skeptical type.  |
| Mike Delaney | MONOLITH, Welcome. Maybe instead of being an electrican, you should have become an author?? Just kidding:) This is great information, that you and everyone else are contributing. I'm in the same boat as you guys, building a successful service company. I get calls from Mr. Electric every couple of months trying to get me to sign on. But I think by "observing" what others do is what's best for me, and I'm fortunate to have stumbled upon this forum. |
| MONOLITH | Think of it this way; When is the last time you woke up, started sipping your coffee, and said to yourself "Today I think I really want to track down another electrician in another state and make sure I improve his business". I certainly haven't, and I'm a relatively nice guy with a big heart. Most likely we wake up, sip our coffee, wish we didn't have to go to work, and think "Today I need to find a way to improve my own business, the kids need new shoes." In my humble opinion, when Mr. Electric calls you from his New Zealand franchise, he's looking to expand his empire, not yours. Be leary of those that want to take your company, and place it under the umbrella of their own. |
| wilkie | Monolith, I have wondered how the ESI members wake up every day and look forward to sending ESI $800 each month; also trying to forget how they mortgaged the house to pay their initiation fees. Another way I look at it, I have an ESI member in my town. We are not the best of friends(mainly because he is a PSI plumbing member who just bought into ESI, which deeply offends me that he is representing himself as an electrician now.) Anyway, we run similar systems at similar rates. The difference is I get to keep the rewards of my labor, where he sends $800 a month to Patrick. Now I really like Patrick, but not that much. On a different note, this forum rocks. I hated that cheerleading crap that went on over there. I'm done over there. It went from being about helping each other to who could say the best thing about ESI and Patrick. I got the feeling there were a bunch of guys trying to justify their 20k boneheaded decision to join. It reminds me of an in-law I have who cannot afford to house or feed himself, but LOVES to tell me why his Harley Davidson (financed) is sooooo great. Which I'm sure it is, but really. |
| MONOLITH | quote: Heh. Take the $800 a month, save that up for a couple years, and buy your own Harley.  One day we'll ride together.
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| ohara7 | has anyone tried paying there guys be commission only? I was in business for 2 years i guess i did OK. but just took a job with verizon for the fttp <fiber to the premise>. the stress of pricing a job and trying to figure how much to give away to get the work just got the best of me then on top of that not getting paid. I still want to keep the business going worked my butt off to get it going. just thought if i provided the truck and jobs that someone could work for commission and my profit would be there and i think its a drive to get more work out of the person. any thoughts ? |
| Doug Wells | Reading this thread sure has been an eye opener for me. Thanks to everyone who has posted .I feel that now I am not taking on trying to be more sucessfull on my own. There is guys out there that want to help others. :) |
| MONOLITH | quote: Just before I went out on my own, I worked for a residential service company who paid me commission, so I can tell you exactly how it is from the worker's side. Doing that is what made me go into business for myself, so find ways to keep your best guys. I was getting paid 30%, and I was using one of their vans, which I paid them back $175 a week for. It seemed okay at first; they had really high rates. The first panel I changed for them was a 200 amp panel, changing the interior load center only. They charged the homeowner $2400. Yep, really. $2400. So for 4 hours work I got paid $800. So initially the money was great. Then the dummies got investigated by the states attorneys office for changing panels that didn't need to be changed, and taking advantage of middle of the night emergency calls by quickly roping the customer into some ridiculous high price. They got a slap on the wrist, but it really scared them and they dropped all their prices. Now they were doing complete 200 amp services for $1200, and no one was making money. Then they joined ESI. They brought the prices back up to a rate more in line with the market around here, but they burdened the commissioned employees with a ton of paperwork to throw at the homeowner, apparantly ideas they got thru ESI, like doing full home inspections upon arrival at the house, (to find problems and generate more work), and legal forms for the homeowner to sign, and followup surveys, blah blah blah. Now, most likely all the forms etc are all good ideas and have good purpose, but they were implementing them wrong, so that when a woman called me to change a lightbulb, I'm walking in her house and blasting her with home inspections and forms to fill out. People didn't want all that hassle. What also made me leave them was they wanted to be a 24 hour emergency place, and they have yellow book ads in 5 counties, but only 6 guys. So they wanted everyone on call 24/7, and you never knew when they were going to call you at 3am and send you two counties away to do a 200 Amp service change in the rain in the middle of the night. Basically their people and management skills, or lack thereof, drove me away. But more importantly, working commission for residential service company made me say to myself "Hey, wait a minute. I see what they're doing. I can do this. Why should I put up with them for 30%, when I could do this myself for 100%". Also, people steal work. Guys that want to make more money, will simply tell the homeowner "Tell Ted the price is too high, and you're getting a second estimate. Then I'll come back and do this for you for 1/2". So now the guy that was gonna make 30%, is now going to come back on saturday on his own and make 50% instead. It happened a lot. Now clearly, the company I worked for had a lot of operational problems starting right at the top, combined with personality flaws I didn't elaborate on, and I'm sure other companies are implementing the concept with much greater success. But just be cogniscent of the things I pointed out from the workers viewpoint... - When they know how much you're making, they will want to make that too. - Don't make a guy be on 24 hr call when he doesn't want to be. - Find a way to catch guys who steal work, be suspicious when lots of homeowners started rejecting your prices. That tactic will spread thru your men like cancer once they start getting away with it. - Most importantly, keep a good relationship with your guys, know what's going on, especially in the commission situation. Just my quick thoughts on it. Your results may vary. :) |
| JimmyDee | MONOLITH, that is a good summery of the results of the situation you were forced into. I find that the good electricians will hate paper work with a passion. Don't exactly know why but it is true. I left 2 good paying jobs because of being forced to an unreasonable schedual. I like my free time and hated getting out of bed at 2:00 am to do anything. Then of course, they wanted you to be there at 6:00 am sharp to put in your regular 8 hrs. NOT! Jim |
| MONOLITH | quote: When I was a commercial foreman, I didn't mind the paperwork. I even enjoyed impressing the office with the way I did it. But I really hated walking into some poor old woman's house who has a tripped GFI, and nagging her to fill out a home inspection approval form, legal forms about voiding her right to cancel the transaction, "how nice was our employee" forms, "can we have your email address so we can send you coupons for future work" forms... People who would normally approve of the job you did now think you're a pain in the butt. |
| New Guy | Gentleman, this is going to be long, so I apologize. After hearing all the hype and nice things said about ESI and it's members over here I decided to stop in for a couple of days and see what this is all about. My compliments to the designers of this site, it is well laid out and a good place to get information on technical issues. I think that the stucture is great. I am one of those "idiots who made the bonehead decision to join ESI". Don't worry I am not going to pollute your forum with ESI rhetoric. I will clear up some of the blatant crap that has been said against ESI to justify why some people would not or did not join. First of all, groups like ESI are not for everyone. It costs alot of money and takes alot of personal committment or it is truly a waste of money. We have not had anyone quit yet, but in time there will probably be some drop outs for various reasons. I say this based on PSI and Airtime, which are ESI's sister groups and have been around a long time. I am not quite sure where the figure of 20K came from but I have not spent that. Yet!! (Early next year I will have that much invested including my initial fee). I would like to take a moment to comment on some the posts here just to clarify a few things. Again, I need to restate that this is not an ESI commercial nor do I think that evryone needs to join ESI. Guys like Jaimee for instance, has his act together in business. He knows where he wants to go and he knows how to get there. He came from a company that was a contractors 2000 member so he learned a great deal through all the training offered there. Besides he seems like a naturally good businessman. Others don't want to let go of construction, its what they know and probably do well. Others are too skeptical of these kinds of things. Trust me they are all valid points. I only want to clear up the myths that have evolved from alot of ignorance. "...members aren't going to say if they got burned" I don't mean to offend the guy who wrote this, but that was the dumbest statement I heard yet. I gotta tell you, all of us in this group are the same as you guys, no better. Some have better business than others, but we are all of the same mold. If things go sour or were not what was expected, you would all be the first to know. I personally would not want anyone losing money by my false information. Misery does not like company!! "we will make you rich if you pay us" Not what I was promised. I was promised all the tools I need to get rich if I work hard and use them. If I really wanted to become rich. Mostly I was promised the systems to put into my company that would allow me to sell it someday for a profit. "I doubt ESI has anything to offer outside of group support." Again, I have access to business systems, training, software, pricing system, truck layouts, inventory layouts, just to name a few. See, my allurement was the fact that I did not have to re-invent the wheel. I was already starting to design alot of this stuff til I found out that it was already done for me. Don't get me wrong, some of the stuff I designed I think is better and will continue to use, so no, I don't think that this is perfect and it probably never will be. But that doesn't make it a bad investment for me. When I first saw there pricing system I was less then impressed. But when I started training with it I found that my 200 page flat rate book was antiquated and wasted a ton of time. Is it perfect? No way, but it is better then the system I was using before, and I put a GREAT deal of effort into my pricing book to make it what it was. Up to that point I was thrilled with my flat rate system. With all that said, the group support and as John Peters said, the commaraderie I have with other contractors on the same page as I am has been surprisingly one of the greatest assets of ESI. We are all a bunch of shmoes in the same boat going the same direction with the same tools. What a blessing these men and women have been to me. That alon has been worth 200.00/wk. ".....by observing what others are doing around you." You can learn alot from this, but you will not get the complete picture. The type of business that I have and guys like Jaimee have are complete business sytems, from answering the phone to knowing how to present yourself and your pricing to your customer, who thinks you are there to rip him off. Even before ESI, I had bought into another system and if it ws not for the training seminar I would not have been effective as a flat rate company. Don't get me wrong, you can copy what you see, but you will not understand what they know and that will eventually catch up with you. My personal experience has been a good one with ESI. My initial fee was easier for me to swallow because of all the tangible materials that I was issued at our 1st expo. Software, pricing system, etc. Remember, I have already purchased a couple of these systems in the past and found them to be sub-par for my standards, so I was pretty skeptical going in, just like everyone on this site is now. For less then minimum wage, I have a marketing advisor, ads, a financial advisor, financials, limited legal advice or aid (not to attorneys), tools for techs, tools for CSR's, stuff for bookeepers, etc. Oh yeah, great networking with my peers. Seriously, I just touched on a few of the tools I have at my figertips. If I fail, it is my fault unless ESI goes very wrong. Trust me, my lack of trust with people leads me to keep my attention in that direction. One of the other nice things is buying power and discounts on all kinds of things. Again, some of which I find I can do better, some of which I think is great. I hope i did not hack anyone off with this, I merely wanted to clarify what was being misrepresented. To John Peters, I also did not want to upset you either with my posts to you in the replacing you in business, but wanted to get you thinking as well as I wanted to understand what you are truly up against. You are wrestling with something, but I don't have a complete handle on it. If you want to talk to me I think you know how to reach me. In closing, (here is where you all sigh in relief) may you all have a great year, may God bless your families, your business, and mostly your relationship with Him. Sincerely, Rick Bruder |
| MONOLITH | I knew you'd come. I just want to say Rick that the whole time I was posting in here, I knew you would eventually read this and it was a concern to me that you would take my comments about ESI in a negatively personal manner. I tried to be cautious and tempered in my remarks, emphasising that I did not have the first hand info to 'judge' ESI, I was merely stating my skepticism towards any of those types of organizations that profit from others who are less successful or developed. I hope you can seperate my skepticism of ESI, from everything else. I certainly am not among those who disrespected those individuals who gave ESI a try. I believe you and I are developing a relationship outside of the internet that I have a growing apreciation for, and I respect and admire what you as an individual built for yourself. I hope to follow in your footsteps. |
| kiwisholland | Thanks so much guys for all the great replies. I have gotten some great tips! I hope this topic will continue to draw interest. |
| Doug Wells | Still would like to know where the data went from the original forum at electricians board went. did the server get burned up or was it just not worth extracting the data to transfer over to the new forum.I thought the were some very good people out there that could extract that type of info. thanks . |
| New Guy | If my memory serves me correctly, I spoke with Patrick during the problem. They were either changing or servicing the server and it crashed. I believe they tried to get the info back because he still was not sure of the outcome there when I asked him. It was not any type of conspiracy, even he thought that there was some great information there. |
| John A. Peters | Patrick wrote me that it was a young company and they did not have a backup program, but that they did implement a backup program after the hard disk crash. Some one might double check to see how the backups are scheduled both, here and over there. My backup is based on the automatic backup system as professed on the Langa List. Here is the article titled Fast, Easy Backups For Win98 / ME / NT / 2K / XP http://www.langa.com/backups/backups(10).htm |
| John A. Peters | quote: Thank you for sharing your insights! Long informative messages like yours are appreciated. I hope you will stay with us here in this forum, or at least stay with us here in the business section... We appreciate the fact that you are a member of ESI and you can help us sort out the facts from the rumors. Who knows we might be able to help each other. |
| MONOLITH | quote: Overall, this sentence is basically what I was trying to convey. Add to the formula, a huge downpayment ($10,000 ?), and also the fact that what you are being shown are things you may already have conceived of in your own head, and just never instituted. Unfortunately, I think some ESI members have percieved my posts in here as an unjustified attack, but my true intention was simply to explain my own skepticism, as also demonstrated in the above quote. |
| zol_man | it has been quiet on this topic. just wanted to see if there was input from anyone new? |
| John A. Peters | Go here http://www.youresi.com/advantage.aspx and go to the show and see for your self. It is fun and you will learn some things. Be sure to take your wife or partner to keep you from signing up. My wife saved me $10,000.00 Keep good notes and share them with is. Do some networking and tell the guys you meet about our forum here. Get their email address and business cards, so we can keep in contact with them. There is a show comming up and they are listed some where on that web page. |
| Russell120 | If New Guy has access to a list of everyone who has joined and can verify (if he chooses to) exactly how many businesses are still involved, then the process is transparent enough to be verifiable. Happy customers years down the road is not very meaningful in of itself because you want to know if they are the same customers. Obviously there is some value in their system or very few would sign up. The question is how much value. In spite of what New Guy may think, most people who have made bad business choices (scammed of otherwise) tend to stay quieter about this. My wife works for the attorney generals office. When they have real problems with a Company they may have less then 20 complaints, but when the records are checked hundreds (occasionally more) have actually lost money. This would be particularly true of a company that is not acting in any way illegally, but may not be completely forthright. With ESI time will tell. For a business model to have a 90% to 100% success ratio would be amazing. If their actual numbers are verified by an independent source and they had a five year retainage rate of "only" 50% they would actually be doing pretty well. One clear advantage ESI members have is that they by definition are starting off much better capitalized (they have more money) then most small business start ups. Of course paying fees to ESI would cut into that somewhat. Going into a business deal which will involve paying out money over such a long period of time should be viewed with caution in my opinion. |
| electrichi | Well, this is my first post, so hang in there with me. I have some thoughts on this. I have been in business for 5 years, or lets just say 1 year, doing the same thing for the last 4.I have been doing electrical work for 17 years and worked for someone for 9 straight. Left the east coast and now living in Hawaii. It is all possible, and i am an example of being open to change. I also looked at ESI and decided on C-2000- Nexstar back on June 2004. My business was doing great, but i wanted more. Most people are happy where they are and we all get into comfortable habits. I realized that i was always at the mercy of the GC. It consistently left me vulnerable to their whims. It is not to say that they are bad, but they do have the propensity to ruin your company if you are doing too much of a percentage of your total revenue with them. If they go belly up, it can be likened to getting a gun shot wound to the head- hard to recover from finacially if they owe you a bunch (and they always seem to). Diversification, as we know is the key- just like a mutual fund. But anyone paying attention to the stock market in March 2000 would have also liked to lament that. Back to my Nexstar membership. I read all of the posts/concerns of joining an organization and the impression of the cost/benefit/analysis. Many of you, in my opinion, view the value of a monthly payment or an initiation fee as a cost as opposed to an investment in your companies. I realized, it was time to enhance what i was doing and i didn't have all of the answers. It is a humbling event inside to acknowledge this. No one knows it all and we all have alot we can learn. The choosing of Nexstar for me was an opportunity to either join a network group or a franshise- plain and simple- minus the % fee associated with the franchise. So, the choice became clear. I also recognized the value of mingling with Plumbing and HVAC folks, who, in my opinion are and have been way ahead of us electrical Primadonnas for many years. Electricians are often very slow to change due to pride and ego. In that thought process for me, i know i could learn alot from these folks. I look at the financial committment in another way- i couldn't have paid a consultant so much to extract the information or gone to business school. This "tuition", is very inexpensive, when you look at the big picture, long term. "Think strategically, not tactically" (who knows who wrote this?) Electricians are forever deeply entrenched in almost every minutia of their businesses. We can't let go of the control. To me that sums it up. You either decide to stay small, and be a trades person, or become a business person. There is nothing wrong with either. I do feel, that we get stuck trying to do both, and in general, it is hard to do both well. Hence, most folks only have 3-5 trucks, because that is all you can support. We were never 100% committed to becoming contractors- it just happens. We didn't like our old boss- we can do it better..blah blah blah- (get the picture). And now we are where they were and wondering, shoot, this is alot of work! Anyway, i digressed. As the last 8 months or so has shown, a slew of changes have been extremely positive and beneficial. The list is as follows: Attitude and moral of the team, better benefits for all of the company including or office staff, selling our services for the right price and not just what everyone else is selling them for, support of a phenomenal staff of well intentioned people, support from other members on anything and everything- CSR, DSR, accounting, operations, vehicle management, advertising, marketing,forms, HR etc..., coaching and tracking items, Classes for techs, CSR's, DSR's, budgeting, mentoring, the list is large and is constantly improving. One word of caution- it also requires a committment from you. There are no quick fixes. The old Cliche, what you put into it, you will get out of it, runs deep. No silver bullets. Sure you can take a diffrent approach and do it yourself or go to the SBA, but i must share with you, they are not in the building trades. They are not up on the latest and greatest. I ventured into that realm, and it was slow and unrewarding. Sure you can do it yourself and be successful. There is no doubt in my mind. I desired to not reinvent the wheel and accept there were people in other states/areas that had great ideas and where willing to share them to make me a better person/contractor/employer. Listen, it really becomes infectious. Once you are helped, you desire to help others. The giving back is very spiritual for me. Try and go down to your local supplier and chum it up with your competition and see how much they are willing to share with you. All of the doors are open at Nexstar- financials, customer satisfaction surveys, employee surveys- the things we take for granted- like, he we are a good company, or my employees love working here. When you receive the yearly results, they might surprise you. Again, learn and grow. So the price of admission and the monthly are small in comparison to the benefits, in my vision. There will always be a low baller in your neighborhood that you have absolutely zero control over. The only company you can change, is your own. It starts with you. If you sell your services for the right price, it won't matter what the membership fee is or the monthly. It will be another line item on your balance sheet. It works that way with all corporations- you pay for everything- marketing, advertising, legal, accounting etc for the razors and shaving creme you will use on your face this morning. The only diffrence is experience and education. We have allowed the public for over 100 years to allow us to beat each other up over price and the heck with the value. They don't care if you cover your costs and actually make a profit, they want their job done. And probably, in the age of Walmart, for as cheap as possible. Time for a change of thinking folks! It took me a while to change, so i can't expect anyone to believe me- but believe in yourselves. What do you want in your future for your family, self, company? I can go on, but i should give it a rest. Thanks for listening. Keep an open mind.  |
| zol_man | what were the costs for c-2000? |
| MONOLITH | Excellent post electrichi. Thanks. |
| electrichi | Honestly, i don't have a straight answer on the current pricing. I would recommend calling Lisa @ Nexstar and get updated pricing www.nexstarnetwork.com. They are actually all in Texas doing some training on a plethora of subjects. If i didn't have my inlaws here, i would be there. Oh, by the way, if you don't train yourself and your people, it is like breathing, if you don't breathe, you will die. I am not talking about electrical tech training, i am talking about the stuff they don't teach you in the IBEW or the ABC programs. Folks, we need this stuff. How many can read, understand, identify trends in your P&L, print weekly/monthly reports, know what it takes to make it happen everyweek, budget for slow times, know what each of your techs cost you, work comp, gen liability ins, etc. as a percentage of your labor costs. Another concept for you all to chew on: We all have those contractors in our neighborhoods that are medium to large. How did they get that way? First, they might have inherited the biz from a family member- turn key- walk in to the flow. Or got a loan, and have been slowly climbing the ladder of success- this takes alot of your life- and if you don't seek help- you will sureley struggle. Or, you will need to be blessed to partner with someone- something i have a hard time considering. Again, i am not the one with all the answers, but am humble enough to seek them out and never stop learning. So, I paid alot for the membership and have zero quams about the investment. In my viewpoint, it came out to $9.00 per hour, over the course of the first year (based on hiring someone for a 40 hour work week) and $3.00 an hour for every year after that. Find a consultant to work for you for that kind of money and wait for the laughter to ensue. In fact, have them call me. I realize everyone won't see it that way, but if you are in business (and electrical work is not a hobby for me!), that is the shift in thinking that needs to be attained. You don't need to look at it the way i do. You don't even need to agree. You just need to look in the mirror and accept if you are doing it all alone and suffering or want to be better, there are options out there if you are willing. Everyday is a gift! Take Care Keith |
| zol_man | electrichi, please send me an email, as i have a few questions for you. thanks, carl zol_man@hotmail.com |
| electrichi | electrichi@hotmail.com |
| Wirenutz | so...ESI takes a piece of the pie, and makes your life easier ? mainly because they have excellent biz resources, which the little guy is basically unaware of, or unable to fathom sounds fine if your a small biz, yet this seems to do nothing for the overall pix of small biz like the NFIB would a consortium, or franchise merely looks out for itself, not the whole of what it serves does it? I'll wager ESI doesn't legislate like the NFIB does, in fact maybe those of you that are thinking a step beyond'retirement' for your small biz might consider the death tax repeal was a major victory in your behalf small biz is, and always will be, the 'collective' backbone of the American economy, not the fortune 500's... now if you've found that sugar daddy that claims it can ease your way into your golden years , more power to you, yet i would suggest that if you would like to leave the trade better than you found it the universal axiom "follow the $$$" is applicable here ~W~ |
| MONOLITH | Wirenutz, I had never heard of the NFIB until your post, so I checked out their website. What does it cost to establish, and renew, memberships? I couldn't find that. |
| Wirenutz | MONOLITH, they basically ask what you can give, i'm @ $200 a yr., others are more... ~W~ |
| Jim in MD | For some insight into ESI try this link. Look on the right side of the page. http://www.thesuccessfulcontractor.com/ |
| Wirenutz | quote: same strategy the MLM's use... ~W~ |
| electrichi | Wirenutz I generally don't think it is a bad thing to be pumped. The essense, is to look forward in a positive direction. I understand your late night infomercial analogy, but it doesn't have to be that way. Adults in professional sports have coaches and trainers they utilize all the time to be at the top of their game. They help hone their skills to be as efficient as possble. Treat business as a business. It is definately not a hobby for me, and i am sure it isn't for the top athletes in the world. My 2 cents! all the best! |
| Wirenutz | yanno i get all manner of 'make your million in contracting' fodder in the mail, and if works for you more power to you.. and to be honest, i've induldged in a few myself over the years i've come to the conclusion, however, that some people work harder trying to get out of hard work than anything else so as you shake the hands of those suits out there endevoring to elevate your blood pressure , do check for a callous or two i can say i earned mine in this trade ~W~ |
| electrichi | For me, it has nothing to do with making a million. It is simply an organized approach to the business of contracting. Wirenuts, how many hours a week do you work? Including field work, bidding time, looking at jobs, paperwork, supply house, answering phones. I, like many of you, never factored in all of the donated time at nights and on the weekends. Sure the Callous time has been billed for, but don't you deserve to be compensated for the other time? Alot of guys i know, have their wives working the phones/books for free. Thats wrong in my viewpoint. No one is saying you haven't earned it. What is being expressed is all of your time is important and it is trackable. Sure, it takes time to track, but don't you think you should reward yourself for all of your work. Here is some simple math for you. Let's say you work 8 hours on the job in the field, on an average day. Some days you need to do all of the items i mentioned above. example: you charge $50/hour....1960 hours = 98K a year..deduct all of your expenses.. So, you have 40 hours x 49 weeks = 1960 hours. (2 weeks vacation - holidays). 2 hours a day to do estimating/billing/looking at jobs/call backs/supply house runs/laying out your people/taxes/insurance/phone time etc. (this is a small list- there are plenty more items). 30 hours x 49 weeks= 1470 hours= $50/hour= $73k a year. And this is if all goes well and you can sell all of these hours. food for thought! |
| electrichi | For me, it has nothing to do with making a million. It is simply an organized approach to the business of contracting. Wirenuts, how many hours a week do you work? Including field work, bidding time, looking at jobs, paperwork, supply house, answering phones. I, like many of you, never factored in all of the donated time at nights and on the weekends. Sure the Callous time has been billed for, but don't you deserve to be compensated for the other time? Alot of guys i know, have their wives working the phones/books for free. Thats wrong in my viewpoint. No one is saying you haven't earned it. What is being expressed is all of your time is important and it is trackable. Sure, it takes time to track, but don't you think you should reward yourself for all of your work. Here is some simple math for you. Let's say you work 8 hours on the job in the field, on an average day. Some days you need to do all of the items i mentioned above. example: you charge $50/hour....1960 hours = 98K a year..deduct all of your expenses.. So, you have 40 hours x 49 weeks = 1960 hours. (2 weeks vacation - holidays). 2 hours a day to do estimating/billing/looking at jobs/call backs/supply house runs/laying out your people/taxes/insurance/phone time etc. (this is a small list- there are plenty more items). 30 hours x 49 weeks= 1470 hours= $50/hour= $73k a year. Deduct your 30% for all of your costs of doing business 73k-22k=$51K Divide the $51k/$50hour you originally wanted...1470hrs/51k= 34k real for the year based upon your hours And this is if all goes well and you can sell all of these hours. food for thought! |
| John A. Peters | Let me see, I can follow you all the way to near the end. Please elucidate and clarify. It looks like you have something good here. For me, it has nothing to do with making a million. It is simply an organized approach to the business of contracting. Ok Wirenuts, how many hours a week do you work? Including field work, bidding time, looking at jobs, paperwork, supply house, answering phones. Good I, like many of you, never factored in all of the donated time at nights and on the weekends. Sure the Callous time has been billed for, but don't you deserve to be compensated for the other time? Callous? Call outs? What Sorry I may be dense here. I guess you mean billable hours? Allot of guys I know, have their wives working the phones/books for free. That's wrong in my viewpoint. I agree, we need to include those hours in the calculations. No one is saying you haven't earned it. What is being expressed is all of your time is important and it is trackable. Yes Sure, it takes time to track, but don't you think you should reward yourself for all of your work. Yes Here is some simple math for you. Let's say you work 8 hours on the job in the field, on an average day. Some days you need to do all of the items I mentioned above. Ok example: you charge $50/hour....1960 hours = 98K a year.. Ok deduct all of your expenses.. Please elucidate here. So, you have 40 hours x 49 weeks = 1960 hours. (2 weeks vacation - holidays). Yes 2 hours a day to do estimating/billing/looking at jobs/call backs/supply house runs/laying out your people/taxes/insurance/phone time etc. (this is a small list- there are plenty more items). So you mean 2 hours more per day, for a 10 hour day. Yes 30 hours x 49 weeks= 1470 hours= $50/hour= $73k a year. You mean that there were 2 hours per day non billable, I gather. So now your billable time is only 6 hours a day or 30 per week, Now I see. Deduct your 30% for all of your costs of doing business 73k-22k=$51K I guess that is reasonable. Divide the $51k/$50hour you originally wanted... What? - 51K/50=1,020 (?) 1470hrs/51k= 34k real for the year based upon your hours. 1470/51,000= 0.0288 (?) And this is if all goes well and you can sell all of these hours. food for thought! |
| Wirenutz | quote: well your still going to have to do call backs, layouts ,doggin' jobs and ph time electrichi a paperpusher can't can they? i do understand stiving for efficy though, an electrician does not a bizman make does it? Which entities like ESI (et all managment cosortiums) know, none of us had bean counting 101 in 4th year and yes, some of our wives and SO's are filling in the gaps for us smaller guys, as we progress upwards to 3-4 man crews we see the 'boss' usually trading a lot of toolbelt time in for cellphone and gopher detail many will hire an office manager, or a point man for cold calls, supply house and call back fielding, the level of thier intricate knowledge in the trade a key factor to this approach many will hire a paperpusher, billouts, tax related items, payroll, etc without any real knowledge of trade realted activities the former would be tedious at best for outside management , the latter they could assume much easier. these people know that the level of state and federal baloney in hiring help has reached levels where they look good myself i wouldn't outsource a piece of my pie to opportunists, because i know i can find enough local part time help, but hey, that's me hometown proud.... ~W~ |
| electrichi | Wirenutz Can your biz run itself, if you aren't there? I sense that you do have alot of hometown pride from reading your posts. |
| Wirenutz | quote: that would fall under the realm of 'friendly competition' electrichi, i field there calls, they field mine for vaca, and nobody steps on anyones toes doing so... ~W~ |
| electrichi | Thats good news wirenutz. You are extremely fortunate. Well, that was almost was i was implying, but i think i will elaborate further. You see, what i was trying to convey in the last few posts, is that if you have a solid team with all of the respective jobs assigned to them, including written policies and proceedures, the business can run itself while you are not there. Most small electrical contractors i know, don't take too many vacations, or take much time off for those reasons. |
| electrichi | Let me see, I can follow you all the way to near the end. Please elucidate and clarify. It looks like you have something good here. For me, it has nothing to do with making a million. It is simply an organized approach to the business of contracting. Ok Wirenuts, how many hours a week do you work? Including field work, bidding time, looking at jobs, paperwork, supply house, answering phones. Good I, like many of you, never factored in all of the donated time at nights and on the weekends. Sure the Callous time has been billed for, but don't you deserve to be compensated for the other time? Callous? Call outs? What Sorry I may be dense here. I guess you mean billable hours? (John, Callouses- like when you work with tools and your hands endure skin lumps.. :) ) Allot of guys I know, have their wives working the phones/books for free. That's wrong in my viewpoint. I agree, we need to include those hours in the calculations. No one is saying you haven't earned it. What is being expressed is all of your time is important and it is trackable. Yes Sure, it takes time to track, but don't you think you should reward yourself for all of your work. Yes Here is some simple math for you. Let's say you work 8 hours on the job in the field, on an average day. Some days you need to do all of the items I mentioned above. Ok example: you charge $50/hour....1960 hours = 98K a year.. Ok deduct all of your expenses.. Please elucidate here. So, you have 40 hours x 49 weeks = 1960 hours. (2 weeks vacation - holidays). Yes 2 hours a day to do estimating/billing/looking at jobs/call backs/supply house runs/laying out your people/taxes/insurance/phone time etc. (this is a small list- there are plenty more items). So you mean 2 hours more per day, for a 10 hour day. Yes 30 hours x 49 weeks= 1470 hours= $50/hour= $73k a year. You mean that there were 2 hours per day non billable, I gather. So now your billable time is only 6 hours a day or 30 per week, Now I see. Deduct your 30% for all of your costs of doing business 73k-22k=$51K I guess that is reasonable.(for me it is more that 30%) Divide the $51k/$50hour you originally wanted... What? - 51K/50=1,020 (?)(51k/1470 hours = $34k a year) 1470hrs/51k= 34k real for the year based upon your hours. 1470/51,000= 0.0288 (?) And this is if all goes well and you can sell all of these hours. food for thought! (elicidation completed!) |
| MONOLITH | I know a couple of guys in ESI, and unfortunately I think I have greatly offended them by my skepticism and criticism. That bothers me, because that wasn't my intent. One even said "It's because you're jealous". Jealous? No. Do I envy Mr. Sparky? Sure, in some ways. But here's my problem; Look at HgreenO. Totally green, looking for help into the trade by more experienced electricians. As a veteran of this trade, a trade that has been very good to me, I feel I almost owe it back to help people like HgreenO. Now, what if I told HgreenO, "send me $1000, and $50 a week, and I'll walk you through your first year in the trade". Not the same, is it. I'm clearly setting myself up to make some serious cash, feeding off the less experienced guy looking for help. Sort of takes the 'good samaritan' angle out of it, doesn't it? Hard to call me a 'hero', in that scenario. Now, ESI. "Send me $10,000 up front, and another $10,400 per year, and I'll give you advice and support on improving your business". $20,000.00 in my first year of membership? I don't know. It just smacks of cannibalism. I mean, when I reach Mr. kennedy's level, I would feel more like a hero if I started a website like this, and gave out the advice that new companies asked for. Asking for serious cash instead, just changes it for me. When you calculate the total funds coming in from 500 ESI members... 500 x 10,000 up front = 5 million dollars plus 500 x 10,400 a year = another 5,200,000 per year; You have to wonder what the real intent is. Does ESI really have concern over the success of another electrician half a country away, or is the real intent to keep me sending $10,400.00 a year. At 'the other' website, many questions asked by electricians started to be answered with "Join ESI, and you'll know the answer". A board I thought was there to share information among peers, suddenly became a huge advertisement and marketing tool. Surely when viewed this way, my skepticism is justifiable. So do I envy Mr. Sparky? Sure, for business sense, for finding a way to make millions per year off of this trade, without dealing anymore with the same crap we do. But envy him as a community hero? No. No more than I would envy one of you guys telling HgreenO to send you $1000 for the advice you gave him here. In fairness, I guess it should be noted that there are many businesses that charge money to educate you. Vocational schools cost you money, Mike Holt courses cost you money, Short Term business seminars cost you money. Also, I suppose that since all things are relative, if you are a $500,000 a year company, the $20K membership isn't that big of a deal. So, it's simply all a matter of perspective I suppose. |
| cvelectric | As a new member here I would first like to thank everyone here for their participation. I have already learned a great deal from your posts. This is really a great site with professional, serious members. I especially want to thank Mr. Peters for his posts. As a new EC(18 mos.) I find they are very helpful and incredibly generous. I was leery about ESI from the first time I heard about them. It seems to me that most of the information, they charge $10,000-$20,000 a year for(is that right?), must be availlable for free or at a fraction of the cost, through the internet, trade organizations or com. col. bus. courses, for anyone committed enough to find it. I came up through the trade and I find the business side of things a c~~~~enge, to say the least, but I have taken some courses and done some research and that has really helped (esp. sites like this). The price they charge does seem to be taking advantage of tradespeople who are good at the work but weak in the business end. If you're already successful you probably don't need them. What's up with all the secrecy? I hear they make their members sign a non-disclosure agreement and view lawsuits, for breaking these agreements, as a source of income(is this true?). This certainly makes me think twice. Might explain why you don't hear anything negative from members or ex-members? Also, it disturbs me when I read(in information I,ve seen about ESI) phrases like "dominate" the market. I don't want to "dominate" I just want to make a good living doing the work I enjoy and let the other ECs in the area do the same. This kind of sounds like what Walmart and HD did, "dominate" the market. Will the largest EC/conglomerate have 90% of the market in 10 years? Maybe this is just a bit paranoid but I bet alot of small retailers and corner hardware stores thought the same thing 15 years ago. If I offend anyone here I appoligize. It's just that ESI has the feel of a scheme where a few people get rich and the rest are left with the bills. I may be completely off base with these comments but there just doesn't seem to be enough factual info. on ESI, that is easily available, to give me a good feeling for it. |
| MONOLITH | quote: The numbers I stated are the best info I could put together from those that did talk about it. At least $10k up front, then $200 per week. That adds up to $20,400.00 the first year, $10,400.00 every year after. quote: Now this is the really funny part. "Proprietary Information". What this is really about, is maintaining a mystique that allows them to continue to draw in new members. They sell some of the very concepts we talk about here together. Service contracts, professional paperwork, shiny lettered trucks, how to get more calls, etc. Much of this is common sense stuff you already know you should be doing, but just never put into action. So, the lawsuit thing, is because if people started talking and saying "this is the info their selling', then we would all know that we don't need to pay $20,000.00, we can get pretty much the same info elsewhere. If they keep a silence, and secrecy about what they provide to you, you're more apt to want to 'pay and find out'. Now, in fairness, they do provide other services, including full time support, and more detailed plans for success, and things we could all use that I don't know about, etc; But that's the way I see the secrecy lawsuit thing. They scare their members with threats of lawsuits, to keep them quiet so they can keep selling what they sell. That's a bit of a turn off for me. I see this as similar to motivational speakers. I've worked for companies that paid big bucks for some guy to come in and teach us how to see the glass as half full, and teach us how to think outside the box. When it's all said and done, you realize you already had this stuff inside you, you just paid some guy big $ to remind you. |
| electrichi | CV & Mono It seems many folks have an aversion to paying for advise, especially when it is business advice. I am not sure what ESI charges, but even at $20k a year, it seems reasonable to have consultants/support people at your disposal. Think about it, could you hire someone for $10.00 an hour to provide those services? Essentially, that is what it costs. So, for the price of an apprentice, you can get quality data, info and solid experience, or do the school of hard knocks and find out that way. I don't consider this psych ops on any of you. It is just the facts. You can take it for face value or dig in deeper. I am not familiar with the if you tell, you will be sued scenario at ESI. Nexstar operates diffrently. Sure they have information that they have accumulated over the years that is coveted, and rightly so. I am willing to pay for it. I don't want a free lunch. I am grateful someone made the sacrifices, and was willing to provide this info. I also realize the info is only good, if i do something with it. I am also happy to share with the members, any information i have accumulated over the years. It makes the whole group stronger and allows us to all be better contractors and business people. I pay my attorneys and accountants professional fees for their advise, and i think the things i have learned at Nexstar trump (in value) the $ i pay my attorneys and accountants. Just as a customer should value your time, you value your accountants time and pay accordingly. Again, that is a cost of doing business. Accept it. Whether you learned going to college, at the golf course, or thru your father in law, it cost you either time, $ or both. It also allows us to foster change in how the public views trades people. Let me ask any of you- how much do you think real wages have gotten better over the last 20 years? They have stagnated and not kept up with inflation. So, your dollars don't buy what they used to. This is another reason why joining an organization is beneficial. It allows you to look deeper into your business, as well as your peers, and assess where you are and where you can improve. We all have big ego's, but the willingness to change, is probably the biggest impediment to our success. There is no wrong way to travel. Some folks are going to be happy as 1 or 2 man bands. Just do you and your families a favor, and save some $ for retirement. You won't get much for that old van, rusty tools, and antique customer list. all the best Keith |
| MONOLITH | Keith, I actually do agree with the basic premise you're detailing. It's just hard to get past the '2 am infomercial' stigma I suppose. But when you point out the following... quote: In looking at it translated into a 40 hour week as you did, (an apprentice salary), it does appear a bit more swallowable. Again, like I said, it's all relative also, the bigger you already are, the less of a big deal the 20K seems. And I do agree with this... quote: I think it's both a valid point, and well stated. The one thing people tend to say, that bothers me somewhat, is this... quote: Why is there an assumption, that without some 'paid for' type help, the result will be an old van, rusty tools, and an antique customer list? Or the same concept attached to a 'small company'? No one has the patent on good ideas, or successful business plans. I've only been in business 6 months; I started with absolutely nothing but an idea and overdue bills. The first contract I signed to wire a new house, I didn't even own an extension ladder yet. But I sold myself and my abilities, I found the right ways to pull things off, I devised an excellent marketing strategy, and I am doing extremely well. I am certain that the owners of the Nexstar and ESI type firms are not the only ones capable of producing ideas to achieve success. There's another thread here somewhere, where I described in detail why I thought the flyer mailings, as a marketing tool, was superior to phone solicitation, and why. I think I was dead on, and my analysis of it was good enough to sell to people. And it's working, because I'm getting calls from people that received my flyer over 4 months ago, and held on to it just as I had predicted. At the time I couldn't afford the full page Yellow Book ad, so I found a way to jump right in front of those YB ad companies and cut the legs right out from under them. There is an extremely large percentage of the population in my county that is calling me before they even bother to pick up their phone book. Those $500 a month YB ads that some companies from other counties are paying for and claiming to be 'in my area', have largely become useless for many. I would say that qualifies as being on the way to, in ESI's own words, 'dominating the market'. I have no intention of retiring with a rusty van or an antiquated customer list. Mr. Sparky started, at some point years ago, exactly where we are. There's no reason why any of the rest of us can't or won't be just as successful without paying someone else for their story. I don't think that being a '1 man band', or a small company, is an automatic ticket to the rusty van either. I've worked for large companies doing million dollar projects, and their profit margins were cr*p, because their overhead and operating costs were enormous and uncontrollable. I've seen small companies making huge fortunes because of the same reason, in reverse. I have no idea what Romex Racer's van or bank account looks like, but he's a one man show that sounds like he really has his sh*t together and is doing extremely well. Whoop whoop. So, I guess all I'm trying to say, is I don't fully understand why people think if you're a small company, or you don't pay some other successful person to tell you what they did, you will tempt failure or barely make it to retirement. I realize that not all of us are the same. I realize that some of us will retire with the rusty van. I just denounce the concept that if we don't pay an outfit like ESI or Nexstar to help us, we'll fail. I certainly don't see that for my future. Anyway, my only point is that it bothers me, this assumption that we are doomed to failure without paying someone else for help, or growing to a certain size company. Sorry if I sound grumpy, I'm hungover. EDIT IN, 2 HOURS LATER; You know, I've actually been asking myself, "why did I develop such a negative view on this", and I haven't found an answer. So I have been trying to sum up my entire feelings in an open minded, objective way. I'll sum it all up this way.... 1. Yes, I actually do both understand and apreciate what buying assistance from an already successful firm can do for ones own business. 2. The cost being relative to ones own finances, perhaps the fact that 20K seems out of reach for me at the moment skews my opinion of paying that much for the advice at this time in my own life. Perhaps if I had that much extra $ laying around, I would be willing to give it a go, because I could afford the loss (financially and emotionally) if I didn't like what I bought. Yet, if I felt that I could afford to pay that much for the advice, maybe I didn't need the advice to begin with. A bit of a paradox there. 3. Someone I know who joined ESI, and is already a fairly successful EC, did say to me {paraphrased} "yeah, I kind of new these things already, so ESI really just stirred me into acting on them". That kind of statement makes me feel that if we just look within ourselves, and find the motivation to do the things we already know we should do, we could find success as well, without paying someone else to nudge us along. I will add though, that this person is still glad that he joined, and has no apparant regrets. 4. The 'cannibalism among peers' thing does bother me to a certain degree, but I guess it shouldn't. I call it that because, as I explained in another post, someone who already has millions and is extremely successful, asking for more millions to tell younger struggling peers how to emulate him, gives a whole different feel than someone who would provide that tutoring here in a forum like this, in a 'giving back to the trade that made me' sort of gesture. But in fairness, he has every right to sell his 'product', it's the American way. If I were in that position, perhaps I'm not sure what I would do myself. I do know that a few moments at Mike Holt's website, will demonstrate that although there is plenty of things you need to pay for to have, there is also quite a lot of useful and helpful information, documents, and tools, downloadable for free. I see nothing like that at the ESI site, only info on where to send the check. 5. I do believe that each and every one of us has it within himself, to become equally successful as those who want to sell us their 'secrets'. It's a matter of drive and resourcefulness. Is it 'ego' that makes me not want someone else to give me their mojo for a price? Maybe it is, I don't know for sure. But I do know it is my intent to give it my very best shot to become just as successful as those who are selling advice, using my own talents, and I have faith in myself that I can do so. 6. All of my comments in this entire thread and others are directed at the "concept" of what organizations like ESI represent, and are not intended to be criticisms of the actual company, people, or members. It's the idea of paying big bucks for a helping hand from a peer that rattles my cage, not the actual real life people. Hopefully you, and they, understand what I mean. |
| John A. Peters | I agree. The only real advantage that I can see to a ESI model is that you could develop a company that can run without the owner being hands on day to day. Mister Sparky's company has grown large enough to have a "service manager" and Patrick is off traveling. I am lucky to get away for ten days of vacation with my family, (but I do) with my 3 man and 1-1/2 woman band. I will not have an easy time selling my company to any one other than another small entrepreneur that wants to expand his company or double his business. |
| MONOLITH | Thanks John. I'm sorry I edited in that whole second part after you posted. Hopefully you still agree.  I just want to add also, that John here, and several others at this forum, are a very good example of my 'help your peers, not cannibalize them' thing. There is an enormous amount of advice, ideas, and tools being passed around that are helping each others businesses to become more successful. I haven't seen anyone of us PM each other for a payment over it. So what's the difference between us, and those that ask for payment? Food for thought. Anyway, this really is a great forum, and it's because of the people that post here. I apreciate the things I have found here, and the fact that everyone has put up with me.  Cheers. |
| zol_man | Mono, about your rant, is it due to your hangover or a steroid rage just kidding. i am sooooo sore still from squatting and deadlifting on mon. |
| MONOLITH | Heh. True advice: Only casual lifters get sore. If your sore, you don't do it often enough or with regularity. I actually have to try to get sore, to maintain a sense of accomplishment. It was hard to get used to. Feel free to email me if you want any advice on that sort of stuff. I've been lifting, boxing and bouncing for 23 years. I'm sure I could have some worthwhile tips to share. MONOCORP@comcast.net |
| cvelectric | I guess I'm still leery of a company that does not seem to be very forthcoming with information. Does it really cost $10,000-$20,000 a year? Do they make you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Maybe you can get all the information at the one day seminar. Is this seminar free or does it cost $$$? Is this one day seminar useful or is it a one day sales pitch? Is there a non-disclosure agreement even for the one day seminar? Keith you seem to be sold on ESI. What sold you? You don't seem to have much information if you don't know about wether they have a non-disclosure agreement or even how much it costs. There does seem to be some secrecy/hesitancy on divulging some pertinent information on the part of ESI, like the cost. You say "I don't consider this psych ops on you. It is just the facts." Why do you say this? I don't recall anyone suggesting this. I don't have a problem with paying for services but I have to be clear about the services I'm paying for. I'm not sure about paying for "advice". If it is part of a service I would expect it. My accountant gives me tax "advice" but he does my taxes. As for lawers, their "advice" is essential when you really need it but I have never been thrilled with a legal system that seems to benefit rich people or wealthy companies who can hire a team of lawers to get them out of things. As an electrician I give "advice" to the customer (on safety etc.) but I also provide a service with concrete value. I don't charge for "advice" alone. As for how the public views trade people; in my experience any negativity I've seen is usually the result of the customers' worry that they will be over charged or they had not received the services they paid for in the past. They are, for the most part, glad to see me and satisfied and grateful for the quality of my service when I leave. I really don't think that raising my rates would improve my customers' outlook. I do feel that wages have stagnated in the past 20 years but we could probably have a long discussion as to the causes for this and may not agree(union busting, right to work, immigration etc.). While I don't think wages have kept up with inflation I do feel that, for the most part, contractors rates have kept up and even surpassed the rate of inflation in the past 20 years. As for the willingness to change; I do not have a problem with change if it is really for the better. However, I am concerned with some of the changes that seem to be occurring in our field. My interest is in the small "independent" contractors (I am a one man show). I am disturbed by the trend these days of companies that have to "dominate" the market. The idea that some huge EC/conglomerate may eventually "dominate" our field disturbs me. I guess maybe I could buy a franchise for $$$$. Again, maybe I'm a bit paranoid but I get a bad feeling when I see phrases like "dominate" the market, in things I've read about ESI. And build your business so you can sell it. Is it not the idea of monopolies to buy up small businesses and then make it difficult for others to compete? I don't belong to any trade organization nor have I done much research on them but I do feel there is strength in numbers. If there is one out there that really benefits the small "independent" EC(for a reasonable fee) I will certainly consider joining it. I certainly don't have all the answers and I may not be the best business man and I certainly don't "dominate" the market. I guess I'll take my chances with the "advice" I can get for free, from the good people on sites like this and without the "advice" of ESI. |
| electrichi | Mono I hear what your laying down. There is no shame taking a stab at it without help. I did and so did countless others. I personally and professionally had wished for them earlier in the program, but that is OK also. I don't take any of your comments as being bad because you disagree with me or anyone. My whole intent of posting to this group, was to dispell the myths associated with these types of organizations. I was cynical many years ago about everything and how it reportedly worked from the experts. It took me time to admit i could do better. I can honestly say, it is better. I am proud and so are the people working for/with me. We have grown as a company. We do alot of training, and it is effective. The proof is in the numbers as well as the attitude of the team. I even got a phone call from one of my guys wives thanking me/us for sending him to a service school- and how it changed his view point and their home life. I already invested 5 years in an apprenticship training program and never received a call of that magnitude. So, take it for what it is worth. I am no walking, talking info-mercial. This does work, but you have to committ and hold people accountable! Good Luck! |
| MONOLITH | quote: I guess my question would be, what do you think it was that was lacking before, that you were given, that stimulated you to make these changes. I ask it this way, because many of the things I hear that were accomplished after joining something like ESI, sound like things that could have been recognized as needed anyway. Does that make sense, the way I'm asking it? I mean, people say "I put shiny letters on my truck and got boot covers, now I can charge more". Well, okay, but was that really that hard to think of before you joined ESI? I don't know. Maybe I'm just chasing demons that aren't there. It just seems to me that everything I hear, are things that we as educated intelligent people should have already figured out? |
| MONOLITH | quote: I'm sorry cv, it's probably me that is overusing the word advice. You have to put the intended meaning in context. By advice, I mean the full spectrum of things offered, such as business plans, how to properly put together contracts, close deals, motivate employees, etc. I didn't mean to trivialize the products offered by labeling it as 'advice'. |
| cvelectric | Mono, my comments were really in reply to Keiths' post. He wrote people seem to "have an aversion to paying for advice". I used the quote marks just to accentuate the word advice. Sorry for the confusion. |
| MONOLITH | No worries. It's good that I made that last post anyway. I was trivializing the product by consistently labeling a broad spectrum of services as mere 'advice', which is wrong on my part. Phewww, I have to go out and get some air. I've been at this computer wwaaayy too long this morning. 
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| electrichi | Mono I think the answer to your question- what was lacking- is long and wide. It was systemic throughout the culture in the company. It took alot of courage on my behalf, as well as the people in the company to commit to change. I realized the road we were traveling was just OK. I was tired of settling on OK. I was tired of putting up with OK employees, OK customers, Ok policies and proceedures. I wanted the best people, customers, policies and proceedures- and beyond. I want a company that will succeed itself, and run when i am not their. A solid chain of command and expectations and how each one is directly intertwined to the other- with a complete set of levels of accountability. CV- i am not trying to dominate anything. I am trying to have a solid structure to my organization. You are solo, and i think it is good to start when you have a small orgainzation, because there are less people you have to convince, that this or that thing is a good idea. You are the starting point, and you set the stage on how the music is played. I have people with me for over 5 years, that are having difficulties with the changes. I have my longest employee arriving back from 3 days of training in Philly. It appears he has been enlightened from the dialog we have been having. I hear the change in his voice and the shift in consciousness. I sense an increased desire to contribute more to the team and why- and what is in it for him. Again, you might find good advise at your local chamber of commerce, SBA or the lyons club. I just decided to stay within a trade organization that focuses on best practices and service work. It is working for me right now, and i am extremely grateful. I wish you all the best in your quest to better yourselves and the people around you. |
| MONOLITH | electrichi, I definately do understand the need for change. I need to do some of it right now. There are so many things I read in these threads, that everyone else is doing, and I'm not. Travel time is one of them. I don't charge for travel time. Why? Because as a newb, I'm so concerned about not getting the work, that I give way too much away to the client. The end result is I don't get paid what I should. I'm working on it though. Thanks for the insights. |
| electrichi | Mono It is ok to do charity work, but do it for a good cause. It might be better to capture your travel time diffrently. Flat rate price your work, and work by the task and not by the hour. We are all concerned about getting work. Customers are keenly aware of this. They will leverage this if you allow them. If you are willing to give it away, they are willing to take it. Don't sell yourself short. You deserve to be compensated for your time. If you send one of your employees to a job, you pay them for the travel time? Right? Well, so should you be receiving comp for it. I can say with certanty, that it is good to get on the service bus. I never made money in new construction, and had a tough time on remodels or work at the mall doing TI work. I paid my help, my insurance and all of the other OH items, but there was generally nothing left in the profit category. Keep making it better through knowledge. You all have the ability. |
| John A. Peters | You can start out simply by telling them you have a 1 and 1/4 hour minimum. Let's say your rate was $60 an hour this would mean the first hour is $75 and after that the rate is only $60. If you explain it to them this way I doubt if there be any question. If there is a question you want to know about it now, on the phone, before you drive out there that they're going to be - shall we say cheap about it. Your next goal is to get enough work that you can afford to turn down maybe 10 percent of the calls. You need to filter your calls. Don't hire new man or get a new truck until you have more work than you can easily handle even if you turn down as much as 20 percent of the calls. You don't actually have to turn down the calls just increase your minimum or your travel charge from $15 of the 25 or something like that. Or you can tell them that you can't make it for a week or two, but make sure that is the truth. What ever version of the truth you want to use is fine. We try to stay booked between two and three weeks at all times. Anything less than that your men may start looking around to see what else is available at other companies and anymore than that and your clients may start looking around to see who can come to their house sooner, unless of course you have a special niche or area of the market that you're the best or one of the best. Look for a niche that you especially enjoy. Next question? |