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| Subject - Number of circuits in an enclosure | |
| side-cut1 | I need a little help. I am trying to locate a code article that specifically states the number of branch circuits allowed in one enclosure. This is for a residential application. I have searched the 2002 NEC, but i can't find anything specific. If anyone knows what article could help I would be very greatfull. Thank you |
| Ryan_J | Not addressed. |
| Electricman | side-cut if you are referring to overcurrent devices look at 408.35 in 2005 code. |
| RS377 | By what do you mean enclosure? Do you mean a junction box? If so there is no code. If you mean a circuit breaker panel, and are refering to the number of circuit breaker poles allowed, then the limit is 42, other than those provided for the mains. It is in Article 384-15 of the 1999 NEC |
| side-cut1 | Thanks I know of a couple articles that talk about this, but not specifically. What I am referring to is if you have say for instance, in a bedroom a 3 gang switch box with a circuit feeding a paddle fan/light and another circuit, which would be the arc fault, feeding the switched receptacle. Now I know you should put the dividers in the box, but what I am being told by an inspector is that it does not matter. He is saying that I can't have the 2 seperate circuits in the same box. I have a feeling this may just fall under authority having jurisdiction. |
| Pierre Belarge | I would be interested in his response as to which Article/Section he is refering to. There is no restriction that I am aware of that restricts the number of circuits in an enclosure. The size of the enclosure has plenty to do with the number of conductors, which indirectly will affect the number of circuits. I am an inspector, and I never, repeat never cite a violation without giving the section number of which I am referencing. I was in the field for more than twenty years and know what it is like to be "BULLIED" by inspectors who did not know how to reference the NEC. The way an electrician is proud of his installation, I am proud to be able to cite a section number. Sometimes I will even write the page number  Pierre |
| KSsparky | Side-cut1: The dividers you refer to are only required if the voltage potential between adjacent devices exceeds 300 volts. That rule, 404.8(B), shouldn't come into play in a residential application. |
| David Hyatt | Side-cut, I agree there is no code violation with putting two circuits in a one box. But the paddle fan should be on an ARC Fault as well as the receptacles. If box fill is Ok he would have to show me where I violated the code in this instance. |
| side-cut1 | We have had the paddle fans on the arc fault,but the problem was we have had trouble with the motors on the fans kicking the breaker. I didn't think it was a violation, but I thought I would ask just to see if anyone knew something different. I knew about 404.8(B) but I went ahead and put the dividers in anyway, thinking this would pacify the inspector. I guess i was wrong. |
| JimmyDee | You don't mean to tell me we have a requirnment for these new breakers and they don't have the buggs worked out yet.  Jim |
| side-cut1 | That would be a no, if you ask me. So far as far as arc faults go I have had nothing but trouble out of them. And then with SQUARE D doing a recall on some of theirs it opened up a whole other can of worms with the builders and homeowners. I have had to go out and change them several houses just to assure both homeowner and builder everything would be fine. And come to find out there probably wasn't a thing wrong with the ones installed to begin with. |
| RS377 | Only receptacles have to be on AFCI breakers, not lighting. |
| Ryan_J | quote: True...under the 1999 NEC. Under the 2002 NEC, all outlets must be. |
| RS377 | Well, the 99 is what my nose has been in latley. I passed the California General Electrician Certification test to today with an 87
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| Ryan_J | Congratulations |
| JimmyDee | Congratulations!Jim |
| lctrc789 | I would not put a motor on an arc fault detector, I would install all recpts. I have seen these things fail to many times. We all know that they are new and will have to work bugs out yet. Congrats on passing the test., |
| Ryan_J | Pat: Are you telling me that if you owned a new house, you wouldn't plug the vaccum cleaner into the bedroom? |
| JimmyDee | Sure wish I could get excited about these new arc fault thingies. I sure hope some where along the way we can see where these things are saving life and property. My old 1960s house has been brought up to the 2002 code almost 100% and feel good about that but I think I'll pass on these until I see some correlation on reduction of loss of life before diving into the investment. Jim |
| RS377 | thanks guys |
| Electricman | Side-Cut When Afcis first arrived on the scene we had some nuiscence trippin, but Siemens has worked the bugs out of them and for almost a year now we have had no trouble with them. Just like Ryan has stated all outlets in bedrooms including paddle fans, lights , smoke alarms must be protected by an arc fault breaker. The last couple of service calls that I have had with tripping arc faults was due to an faulty appliance, one was a TV built way back in the early 70s. As far as the inspector saying no more than one circuit in a panelboard I am with the other fellas on this site. In some tract homes that I have done, counter space dictated a 2 gang box next to the kitchen sink, 1 space for the sink light switch and 1 space for a gfci protected receptacle as we all know that sink light cant be fed off of the countertop recept circuit so 2 different circuits 1 box. I am sure the other sparkys and inspectors on this site have many other situations or examples they could give. You should probably ask this inspector(And I use this term lightly, No disrespect meant Ryan) for Code article. I have had expieriences in the past where I proved inspectors wrong and they where proffesional enough to admit it and of course it has gone the other way and they made me pay for it. I hope my rant has helped Merry Christmas All
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| JimmyDee | quote: Do this all the time with a recept and garbage disposal switch next to the kitchen sink. 2 circuits allways. Jim |
| Wirenutz | quote: and the band plays on..... ~W~ |
| Energreen | Hi Side-cut1, This material is copied from the 2002 NEC handbook. This is specific to receptacle outlets. But the explanatory text at the end seems to make this apply to your question. I hope I'm not confusing the issue. EG 210.7 Branch Circuit Receptacle Requirements. (A) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located in branch circuits in accordance with Part III of Article 210. (B) Receptacle Requirements. Specific requirements for receptacles are covered in Article 406. Section 210.7 in the 1999 NEC is now new Article 406, Receptacles, Cord Connectors, and Attachment Plugs (Caps), for the 2002 Code. Requirements for replacement receptacles are now located in 406.3(D). (C) Multiple Branch Circuits. Where more than one branch circuit supplies more than one receptacle on the same yoke, a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors supplying those receptacles shall be provided at the panelboard where the branch circuits originated. In 210.7(C), specifying a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors is a safety issue that applies to devices (actually, the single yoke) where more than one branch circuit is involved. |
| Mike Delaney | Since ARC Faults came into play, it seemed as everyone was confused as to the term "Outlet" we would wire just the recepts on ARC for about six months, then everyone found out that the term "outlet" means anything that utilizes electricity. Thats been about 3 to 3 1/2 years now...we've wired a couple of hundred house since then. The way we wire them is everything in a bedroom (lights, switches, recepts, smoke detectors,etc.) are ARC faulted...I put paddle fans, bath fans, you name it on them...the only times I've had problems, are when a staple was to tight, or a wire was nicked...but rarely. I know in the begining everyone was scared...the breaker came with disclaimers about it not working with TV and electronic equip., but we havn't had problems...A normal house CKT would go like this ARC Fault #1--bed 2/bed 3...ARC Fault #2 master+smoke detectors...the only thing that really sucks about them is the cost...we get SQD HOMELINE HOM115 AFCI $22.00. |
| Pierre Belarge | Not all outlets in a bedroom (2002) are required to be AFCI protected. 125 volt, single-phase, 15- and 20 ampere outlets. a 240 volt A/C outlet would not require AFCI protection, and we see plenty of these installed in bedrooms. Pierre |
| Mike Delaney | This is true. In colorado we never see room a/c..just one central a/c...but you catch my drift. |
| Wirenutz | 440.65 mentions LCDI or AFCI Pierre, interestinly enough in the cord. I mention this do to the listing of afci's supposively not serving beyond the device. a tad conflicting eh? ~W~ |
| Mike Delaney | Wirenutz, Good going. I didn't know that existed (440.65), have you been called on that before? |
| Pierre Belarge | Wirenutz Since the inception of this requirement, I have not seen any AFCI cord installed units...HMMM! The manufacturers of AFCI breakers have now manufactured and listed a combination type AFCI breaker that will perform in the fashion we originally thought the breakers were supposed to. I was provided with a demonstration type breaker from SqDee, and have not heard of the exact date they will be available to the consumer - I have heard it may be as early as March. Hence the new requirement in 210.12 of the '05 NEC. Pierre |
| Wirenutz | no Mike, i have not been called on, nor do i expect to be called on what a manufacturer should provide and Pierre.... it is not my intent to dis you here, because i'm sure you're aware of the unsubtantiated claims that manufactures tout when they have a new widget but it just seems that, every code cylce it occurs note Ray Marchand and Dave Dini (both of cmp-2 fame) , a sq D rep, and a UL one, came forth after the 02' edition (sans 210-12) in nec digest with a two part series dubbed 'the Truth about afci's" factor in George Zlan's (a gifted inventor) letter to Congress asking for a class action suit againt NEMA prior to this , and motivations gain clarity prior to said article, the thresholds of protection were conjecture... ~W~ |