Electrical Forum - Rewiring an old house?

Ek's Home | Forum | Chat | Electrical Links |

Subject - Rewiring an old house?
Wondercat	I just bought a 1400 sq. ft. farmhouse built in 1900. When our inspector looked at the house, he told us that a circuit breaker had been installed and that everything was re-wired except for this one lightbulb in the attic that is still on knob and tube. There was some other knob and tube wiring still hanging around, but when he tested it, it was dead. However, most of the outlets are not grounded - just sporadic ones upstairs and down that clearly look newer. He thought that the cost of rewiring to get all of the outlets grounded would cost somewhere around $2000. When we had an electrician come in to give us an estimate yesterday, he told us that the entire upstairs was "probably" still knob and tube (based on just looking at a plug, not even removing the wall plate) and that it would cost between $8000-$10000 to get the house up to code, including wiring every room for a smoke detector and putting in a second circuit breaker. I don't know anything about electrical systems, so I am trying to figure out if that seems like an unreasonably high estimate for this job. The inspector looked everything over thoroughly and seemed to think the work that has been done on this house has been professionally and properly done.
JimmyDee	You are aware that your house is grandfathered as to code and probably doesn't need to be done to comply to building codes. $8k-$10k sounds a little high but I haven't seen the house either so to be fair, it may be an OK price. Nob and tubing wiring is safe but really is not adequate for todays requirements. I would find some other contractors and check them out for pricing. Jim
rlc3854	IMO if an inspector (building/multiple trades) took the time to look as close as described I would believe him rather than the electrician. Did the electrician charge for the estimate? Was anything stated as to opening the walls and ceiling?
Wondercat	He did not charge anything for the estimate and actually has never even gotten back to us with a written estimate with more details as to what this job would entail. We are in the process of trying to get somebody else in to look at the house, but it seems to be very hard. Are electricians really this scarce? We started calling more than a dozen different ones two months ago and set up 4 appointments (with the only 4 who returned our calls). So far this is the only guy who has even bothered to show up (we made the appointment literally two months in advance). No offense to anyone here who is an electrician, but it's starting to make me pretty cynical about trusting electricians if they can't even call back just to say they can't make it that day. The message I'm getting right now is "Yeah, we'll rip you off... if we can find the time." I don't want to do something stupid (like have my brother-in-law do the rewiring). All I want is to pay a qualified professional the reasonable amount to do a good job of work.
JimmyDee	Not going to say anything good about someone that is not good to their word but rewiring an old house is like going into a completely unknown world. So many things can come up when rewiring that it is very hard to give a firm price on the work. I have worked on houses that have had fire stops half way up the wall and that completely stops any fishing of wires. Since most of us don't do drywall or plaster repair, the necessity of opening the wall to fish wires becomes a great unknown cost. I have cut a plug into a wall and had old wood lath plaster crumble and fall out and leave a foot round hole in the wall. You might find someone that will do the work after hours by the hour and allow you to be his grunt. Maybe you can work something out with an electrical contractor where you could cut in the boxes and chase the cables into a basement or attic and and let him finish it for you. Jim
Wirenutz	most K&T , when insulated around, is no longer 'to code' , allbeit installed correctly originally as it was intended as an open conductor method.... and as the market seems rather well off (just how is housing starts btw?) 'old work' takes a back seat.... no offense, but would you like to tell a homeowner that s/he is going to have thier home ripped up to replace wiring? as an EC i can tell you none of us price out other trades very well.... tell you what, why not just change out all your 2nd floor breakers to AFCI's ? They're held in high regard as the miracle widget of our trade, slice/dice & make julian fries too, just ask any of us... ~W~
Pierre Belarge	I would not rely on the inspector's comments, as he has said it was all rewired, yet there is no grounding available to the receptacles. Rewired when????? Try getting 3 estimates from electricians that are referred to you. Try the local building department, or if they will not recommend any, the local hardware store. Remodeling an older structure like yours can sometimes be very difficult, so do not look for the lowest price. Good luck!
sparkie2170	As a licensed City of Chicago electrician, and a licensed General contractor, I think the problem may be a couple of things. When my wife bought our house, she had it inspected by a home inspector. Not city or county affiliated, a private firm. He informed her that the BX that ran through the joists in the basement is a hazard because children may swing from it! However he had no problem with the panel that had three unconnected breakers and the feed to the 3rd fl was tapped of the top of the main with #14! The other problem is homeowners! Contractors are not psychics with x-ray vision. We cannot read your mind, and have no idea what people have done inside your walls in the last 100 years. Give a brief description on the phone, and when a contractor comes out ask questions. I can tell from the first phonecall if I would be interested in the job.
Wirenutz	quote: Contractors are not psychics with x-ray vision. yeah but, i knew someone would say that.... ~W~
Wondercat	Let's see if I can take all these responses in turn. Nobody is telling me my house will be ripped up because nobody is telling me ANYTHING. Electricians must be psychic with x-ray vision if they can tell over the phone if they want my job or not. They also must be fabulously wealthy, because nobody wants it. Even the guy with the 8-10K estimate never called back. So I guess I'll just replace some outlets myself. With my background in finance, I should be a wizz-bang at it. Hey, I have re-wired lots of lamps before so I am probably totally qualified to do extensive electrical work that would cost 10K to have a professional do, right?
Wirenutz	Allow me to relate in fiscal terms Wondercat... if i was the EC ( and i have been for more rewires than i can remember) i'd give you a T&M estimate based partially on how much damage i can do. i.e.~ one can buy a sheetrocker/mudder/painter a whole lot cheaper than buying a sparky that takes all day fishing up against fireblocking right? so you see, the final decisions would rest with you, not to be determined beforehand unless some detailed investigation (or superman shows up) were to be performed (this is where free estimates end btw) i have laid out options as follows, there are pro's/con's to each.... 1 you can abandon your present 2nd flr circuitry in lieu of wiremould,(check out the newer baseboard models that seperate power from datacom) 2 you can enhance your older circuitry via GFCI/AFCI protection , as well as derating and seperating it into multiple circuits 3 you could get your hands dirty, and find out just how much work, (and i do mean dirty work) 'old work' really is. fwiw, go to this forum, and ASK about what your doing, you'll probably find more responsive people there (note the disclaimer in self help forums vs. professional ones) ~W~
Scott Vickrey	WonderCat you may live in an area that has an electrician problem. We have plumber problems were I live. There can be many reasons for this but I won't go into that here. We can't seem to help you because of the ambiguity of your situation. Has the house been rewired or just a small portion? If you don't know then we really don't know. I will try to help you by making a few statements. most interior walls can be fished fairly easily. Some exterior walls can be fished with alot of time and effort from the electrician. Sometimes there is no way to rewire something with out some kind of destructive action like cutting into the wall finish. Most self respecting electricians can keep the amount of wall repair required after installation to a painless amount. It's always the unknowns that get in the way of this strait forward process(like horizontal stud braces.)As for the price it's really hard to say. Electrician's rates vary widely by location and company. Ask people around you what electrician they use. You should post where you live. State and possibly town. Many electricians visit this forum. I would not recommend doing the work yourself. Also, try asking specific questions if you want specific answers. You should also be aware that nobody here will help you if they feel you are trying to do the work yourself. This is because it's not allowed here due to liability reasons and no other.
Wondercat	::sigh:: Obviously I don’t want to do the work myself. I desperately want to pay somebody else to do it. I figure there is a good reason why it takes such a long time for electricians to get certified. When I first started looking for an electrician in this area – Massachusetts, by the way – I was given 5 names as references from other people who have lived here all their lives. None of them called back, so we called every single one in the yellow pages. Two called back. One showed up. Most of my other friends said that they just did their wiring themselves or with the help of an uncle Joe or cousin Bob who “knew a little something about it.” I don’t want to go that route. Right now I am living in insurance limbo because of the knob and tube wiring. If there is any way a house fire can be tied to that wiring my homeowners insurance isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. So it’s not really helpful to tell me that electricians pick and choose based on a phone call whose job they will do. I know anything to do with old houses is a pain – unpredictable, dirty, and undesirable. I have scraped, plastered, sanded and painted 7 rooms, tiled my bathroom, installed pantry shelving and ripped out miles of pink carpet (love those tack strips!) every night after my 7:45-5 job since we bought the place in late October. The “sheetrocker/mudder/painter” who will fix holes in the wall is me. As a non-electrician (with the exception of installing light fixtures and rewiring lamps) I would like to educate myself so that I can hire somebody who is honest and knows what they are doing. It’s hard for me to get specific when I don’t know what this kind of work entails. I know what other people tell me, and if different people give me different information… This is why it’s so easy for unscrupulous people who do specialized work to take advantage of customers – auto mechanics, plumbers, even doctors (“Oooh, looks like you’re going to need new widget filters and a borax alternator” Uh huh. Riiight.). “The other problem is homeowners” – maybe you need a little homeowner perspective on the fact that it’s scary to have somebody tell you that you “need” to give them $10K to do this and that when you have no way of knowing if that’s true. What I’m looking for are tips as to what kind of things really NEED to get done to an older, ungrounded home and how to tell if somebody is making things up. I have already gotten some good tips, and I thank you.
Wirenutz	i can appreciate your angst Wondercat, perhaps your unaware that we often do much of our biz towards xmas or new yrs deadlines ?, basically juggling until jobs are 'buttoned up'... try calling around after the 1st, allbeit old work and dirty, inside gets to look a whole lot better this time of year good luck ~W~
adejesus	Hi, I am trying to wire a ceiling light and add a pull chain to it in my house. How do I wire a pull chain into the light, the pull chain has black,red,and blue wires? Thanks! Angel
journeyman491us	...This is the atypical scenario. What wondercat is speaking of here is a fine example of "No two electricians are alike" (thank god for that!) Unfortunately here in Massachusetts electricians get a bad rap...some rightly so. Unfortunately most electricians "in the yellow pages" don't have the first clue as to customer service. Not to single anyone out, Industrial,comercial or resi guys but our industry needs to be "re-vamped". As far as a comment someone else said about "old work"...if it was up to me it would require a special certification on the license. Many a times I have seen the "brother in-law" that is a maintenance electricain, or wires new gas stations (once again...not poking fun at anyone) come in and "butch up the house". I specialize in "small jobs/repair work" with a heavy emphasis on "old work" and would much rather "make my dough" this way than try to compete "roping new houses." New house=no money in my opinion...but anyway. For those of you that do not feel comfortable or do not have vast experiance in "old work"...please leave it alone! Be truthfull with potential customers. Return phone calls. Tell people like wondercat...you need a specialist (if you hang 4" ridgid all day on a scissor lift....stick with it!) Old work is just as challenging as any aspect of the trade. I don't bid new gas stations, or plastic factories...I'm honest...Are you? Me telling a plastic shop "NO"...is no different than you telling someone like wondercat "NO"...be honest with your customers...and with yourself. Being specialized within the trade isn't a bad thing...Playing with "Horse hair-n-slats" can be just as rough as hanging ridgid all day. ....This is just a pet peave of mine (sorry I'm venting here). But to all my fellow Massachusetts electricians...we have a good thing going here...lets' not screw it up. If enough people like wondercat get "peaved" and the state steps in...we have a lot to lose. For those of you wondering...Massachusetts is probably the only state in the country where a Journeyman Electrician can be a "Sole Prop. Contractor". As a journeyman here you can hire a helper and "hang out your shingle" if you so choose. Not bad if you ask me??? ...Once again...not poking fun at anyone...but to all you guys out there "roping new houses" (and cutting each others throats to win the job by $50 bucks sometimes)....keep up the good work, because a few years down the road when those back stabbed outlets start making the lights flicker, when the homeowner wants "little things done"...I'm the guy you are helping Thanks in advance...
stedder	Juorneyman491us I love old work, it's a great feeling to me to figure out the sequence and be able to do as little damage as possible, the only problem is as is demonstrated in wondercats posts is that it's hard to convince a customer how much it's worth. Sometimes what s/b a 10 minute job takes 2 to 3 hours and brings you to tears, (it helps to have no customer around so you can vocalize). Ya just gotta stop sometimes and expand your thinking from a straight line, I'm in NY and there's plenty of old houses here too. I hope wondercat got hold of someone!