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| Subject - Pancake boxes | |
| David Hyatt | I just realized that a 4" round pancake box, 6 cu. in., is not even big enough for a 12/2 romex. I wanted to use one for a ceiling fan, does the canopy add any cu in.? |
| JimmyDee | David, they make a special pancake fan box that should do what you need it to do. Just make sure the box you use is fan rated. Jim |
| David Hyatt | The problem I see fan or not, a pancake box is only 6.0 cubic inch. 1 piece of `12/2 would be 2.25 X 3= 6.75 How can any work that are only 6.0? |
| JimmyDee | Don't tell anyone I said this but, sometimes you just have to do what it takes to do the job.  Why are you using #12?Jim |
| David Hyatt | That is what my friends keep asking me. I have always used #12. I have probably only pulled 200' of 14 wire in the last 10 years. I want 20 amp capacity to all my general purpose recpts. and lights. I just pulled 4000' this last few days and boy am I reconsidering my options. Price and workability are on major factor but box fill for sure. I had a hard time on this house with box fill. I assumed if a single gang nail up held 10 # 12's a two gang should hold 20. I am glad I checked before inspection. |
| Ryan_J | When I inspect and see pancake boxes, I will approve them if they are a 4-0 and if they only have (1) 2 conductor cable. If it takes a 3 wire cable, well, you're out of luck :) As you stated, even a 12-2 won't comply, but I turn my head on this one. |
| zapped208 | David,- Why are you killing yourself? Use #14, It makes installing dimmers alot better in 3&4 gang boxes. |
| David Hyatt | It makes things all around easier, I never seem to take the easy way out. I now realize to stay competitive I may have to lower my standards to code min. I never thought I would ever say that, but it my very well be true. |
| Electricman | David, Arlington Industries makes a pancake box that will suit your needs check out their site, also your supplier may even stock them. |
| RS377 | Article 410-10 says you can use the canopy of the fixture for added room |
| JimmyDee | quote: quote: |
| RS377 | thank you, I didn't want to go out to the car, but I looked this one up yesterday just for this |
| KSsparky | How do you determine how much extra space the canopy provides ? Anyone ever seen one marked with it's cubic inch capacity ? 314.16(B)(1) Exception does allow for equipment grounding conductors/fixture wires (not over 4 #16 or smaller) to be omitted from the box fill calculation when they originate and terminate in the fixture's domed cover. |
| Ryan_J | Only if the canopy is listed with its capacity does it count for box fill. |
| RS377 | Well, on one hand, I've never looked for or seen a ci listing on a canopy. On the other hand, since most of us have two, I've installed tons of inspected pancake boxes. Nearly all of them in #12, both 12-2 and 12-3 for fans. Maybe this is a situation where common sense has prevailed. |
| veganfan | I will risk sounding stupid, and ask what is a pancake box? I have never used one at my work, or if I have I did not realize it. |
| Ryan_J | A pancake box is one that is only 1/2" deep |
| MSD | And ROUND too.... Just like a pancake |
| Electricman | Ryan........ There are 5/8 deep pancake boxes also check out Arlingington Industries they manuf. pancake boxes that have j-boxes attached to them.
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| Pierre Belarge | Merry Xmas!! My question here is: Are the pancake boxes that are being discussed here listed for paddle fan installation? Kinda makes this discussion a "moot" discussion. BTW - if we were to "stretch" the requirements for one rule, why not stretch them for all rules? Pierre |
| veganfan | Merry cristmass to all. Are pancake boxes any where in NEC I could not find? |
| RS377 | quote: Actually, the last dozen or so fan boxes I've installed have been pancakes. They come in a nice little kit with a plastic connector, proper screws for both the fixture and the box. I think the reason that you can stretch this one is becasue now where in the code book does it say anything about the capacity of light fixtures. What it says is that together they shall provide adequate space for the conductors and their connecting devices. Perhaps I need to go to the hardware store and see if any are listed with the actual ci. However, without breaking out the micrometer and calculator, I can see that any canopy, in addition to a pancake, will offer more than enough room. Doing the math, a pancake (of the 3/0 1/2 inch variety) has a volume of 3.5ci. Therefore, it would only take the space of one more pancake box, 3/4" tall. Even small canopies easily have this, and a 12/3 is as much as you are going to put into it. Again, I have never seen a ci listing on a canopy, but anyone can see that there is enough room. |
| Pierre Belarge | Richard (taught well) Using a listed pancake box for fans is fine. My question was derived from the statement "pancake box", which does not mention, listed for fans. If the box is listed for fans, great...but we still have all of the parameters to follow, such as for sizing. I am not too sure why you are personally allowed to change code requirements just because you think it is okay, but in general the requirements are there to be followed regardless if we agree with them or not. Believe me there are some I am not too sure where the parameters are based on, and I am not in agreement of the requirement, but I follow them .Pierre |
| RS377 | ok, no one mentioned article 370-16(A), which says that they must be marked. My arguement was the fact that they need to be marked, and I found that one. I went through my garage this morning and found two fixtures, a sconce and ceiling fan that are less than five years old and they have no stamp on them, even thought they have plenty of room in the canopies. Since a decent portion of my work that has included pancake boxes involved one off light fixtures, that usually don't have UL listing (the lamp holders do, but not the rest), I don't see why someone would get stuck on numbers not being provided for them. My sconce has a relatively small canopy, but with a little simple math, I can see that it has plenty of room. In the future I'll keep an eye out for the rating on fixtures, but with my current job, I don't plan on seeing many. |
| Mike Delaney | David, If you like wiring in 12, you should check out the Allied plastic boxes. 2 gangs have 43.5 CU $.77 ea. 3 gangs have 60.0 CU $1.24 ea. they don't make 4 gangs, you have to use F.G., and they don't break as much as F.G. |
| IndCom | Pancake boxes are normally used in residential construction and are rarely found in commercial installations. They are two different types - one for regular luminaire fixtures and one for ceiling (paddle)fan and light combinations.  Personally, I avoid using them when-ever possible - too much likelihood of a wire being pinched when installing either luminaire fixture or a ceiling fan fixture. Though I have as of yet to look in the NEC - I doubt that it will be listed.  quote: |
| kbsparky | It's been my experience that it does not matter whether the box is listed for fan use or not as long as the fan bracket is independently fastened to the structure. That fan use listing applies only when the fan is supported by the box itself. In the case of "pancake" boxes, one can mount the fan bracket on the box, and then use additional long screws through the ends of the bracket (past the outside of the box) directly into the ceiling joist. Those extra screws are not required if the box is listed for fan use and support. |