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| Subject - Emergency lights/ remote heads | |
| David Hyatt | Are all emergency/exit lights on exterior doors required to have remote heads on the outside of building? |
| SteveMc | no |
| Dave Nix | YES. 2003 IBC quote: |
| Russell120 | The IBC quote is true in so far as it goes, but that particular quote is not the one that requires the remote head. That is the section that requires lighting out to the parking lot or road, but not necessarily "emergency" lighting. There is another section that requires 1 ft candle immediatly outside the exit door and I believe that particular lighting may need to be on an emergency source of power. |
| iwire | Any of the commercial buildings we do require some sort of emergency lighting at each exit door. It may be a fixture connected to an emergency generator, a fixture with it's own battery pack or a fixture run from a battery unit inside. If the inspector is really sharp you need two sources of emergency light. There is a code (sorry I do not know what one) that basically states wherever emergency illumination is required it must be provided from more than one source. Bob |
| iwire | quote: By the way, that is two sources of illumination not two sources of power. One emergency battery unit powering two emergency heads outside the door meets the requirement. Bob |
| Dave Nix | quote: If there is another section in this code, please advise. quote: If in the judgement of the AHJ the exterior side of an exit door will still have the minimum illumination available in the event of a single light bulb burn-out, he may approve a single lamp fixture. |
| iwire | quote: Dave lets look at the whole section. quote: I do not agree that exception allows one lamp. I believe the exception is aimed at the high-intensity discharge lighting part of that section. Specifically a way to allow quartz re-strike lamps to take the place of emergency heads operating until the HIDs come back on. Look at it this way if enough light will be there when the single lamp burns out you do not need any emergency lighting in the first place. But each area is different, I can only tell you how it is enforced here. 
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| Dave Nix | quote: Emergency lighting systems are typically designed to provide more than enough lux at the floor level in case 50% of the fixtures do not light. One foot-candle is not very much light! Most exits around this part of Ohio have one emergency lamp on the outside of an exit door. Most exit doors have the usual combo of exit sign and egress light mounted above the door. When tested at night, these units supply a minimum of 3 foot-candles outside of the door when the door is opened and the outside light is burned out. Maybe in other parts of the country they require 2 separate lamps outside? From my travels, I have yet to see one. Maybe someone could supply a few photos of a typical outdoor egress light? |
| iwire | If you have the required illumination with the door open why do you need an additional light outside the door in the first place? It makes no sense. It is required but it is not required?????? I do not have a picture handy but I will get one. 99% of the buildings we have a generator for egress lighting, and from that two fixtures will be powered from that emergency source. |
| Russell120 | I always wondered where the "two head" rule came in. And now I know. The two lamps outside the exit door would be combining the NEC and the IBC. Combining different codes made by different code making bodies can come up with some very odd and/or extreme results. In North Carolina some AHJ have stated that you had to have emergency power on the lighting all the way out to the public way (parking lot/road). However, the States overall enforcing body (Department of Insurance)has said that that is stretching the rule too far. That lighting that is on at all times that the building is occupied is sufficient. Most inspectors learn these little tidbits from code update classes, where inspectors who like to push the code as far as they can spread wonderful (and expensive) ideas. |
| Dave Nix | quote: I agree. This is also where the "must have two lamps" rumor started. My point previously was: If there is ONE lamp outside and ONE lamp inside and ONE of them burns out, the ONE remaining will almost always suffice and provide the minimum outside illumination. Here is what the code says about "public way": quote: No mention of lighting. |
| SteveMc | Back to the original post...are we required to install remote head outside the exit door? The only one I can recall seeing outside is an exit on a set of stairs. |
| iwire | quote: Yes and depending on the AHJ it may have to be a two head one. |
| SteveMc | SECTION 1006 MEANS OF EGRESS ILLUMINATION 1006.1 Illumination required. The means of egress, including the exit discharge, shall be illuminated at all times the building space served by the means of egress is occupied. Bob, IMO this doesn't require emergency lighting to be located outside the door, only that the exit door be lighted. Again, I have only rarely seen emergency fixture outside of buildings. |
| iwire | Steve the fact that the requirement says "at all times" says to me it includes during a power failure if the building is occupied. It also says the means of egress including the exit discharge. If there are steps outside the exit door IMO they are clearly part of the means of egress. It does no good to light the path all the way to the door only to have people fall down some steps and block the exit for others. Remember this is not really a convenience item it is an life safety item. I base my opinions by what I have been required to install in this area. IMO having a light inside the building does not light outside the door. In a way I wish it did, it would have saved me a lot of work when this was forgotten about until the inspector came and failed a final until we provided the lights outside. JMO, Bob |
| Dave Nix | Let me make this clear. You are required to place an outside light fixture to illuminate the outside of an egrees door. You are NOT required to make it two lamps. ALL egress lighting is required to have TWO sources of power. ONE is normal power and the SECOND is emergency power which can be a battery or generator. This is all the code spells out. Here is where the confussion comes in: quote: Don't read anything into this and you will be fine. It does not say all fixtures must have 2 lamps. It does say "cannot leave in total darkness" and we know from other codes that the minimum level is 1 foot-candle. Remember, and emergency lighting "system" is not a couple of random fixtures. IT IS A SYSTEM designed to opperate properly by a licensed engineer, NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. |
| iwire | quote: Dave let me make this clear.  That is your opinion not a code fact.  You are just an inspector that does not make you special, you are not the NFPA. In all my posts I use words like, "this is my opinion" or this is how it is in this area. I do not think I have all the answers and you would do well to keep in mind that all official interpretations come from the NFPA and not individuals like myself or even you. And that is my opinion  Bob |
| Dave Nix | Here is a fact:quote: No opinion or interpertation required. Just the fact. Here is my opinion: quote: See a conflict? |
| iwire | What is your second source of light? Any exit door I have seen has a door closer on it. I think it is absurd to count the lights on the inside of a exit door as the second source of light, as soon as the door shuts there will be no light. Unless it happens to be a full moon. Bob |
| JimmyDee | I think there is a Biblical principle here as well. Something about being cast out in total darkness?  Actually I think we are going to legislate ourselves into not being able to afford houses, buildings and vehicles. Jim |
| Dave Nix | OK, we will take this one at a time.quote: The code does not require a "second" source of light. quote: I agree. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the "second source of light" is required in the first place. quote: This exception applies to the information contained in 700.16. Not just the ONE paragraph that you think it applies to. The part you did not grasp the first time is that the AHJ (not the electrician) may accept "Alternative means" based on his experience and judgement. As an example; The AHJ may determine that an outside emergency fixture with only ONE lamp may be acceptable in a given situation. This method may be the accepted "norm" in surrounding jurisdictions and is also based on the code classes taught in his area. Does this make it wrong? NO. Do other areas of the state or country use TWO lamps? MAYBE. Are they wrong? NO. Codes are not written perfectly and by design never will be. This is why there is always an AHJ that is ultimately responsible for the interpretation and application of the codes. |
| Russell120 | Dave and I-wire: I feel a bit handicapped by the fact that my code books are at work. However, the interpretations of what lighting is required to the public way come from the life safety code{NFPA 101), or whatever your local building code says (in North Carolina the IBC). The requirement for 1 foot candle varies from code to code. If it is a minimum 1 foot candle at ground level, that is actually pretty hard to do with out more lights then you might imagine. The IBC uses an average foot candle and that is much easier to accomplish. Of course in the usual sloppy IBC way they don’t tell how to go about measuring this average and allows for all sorts of abuses. But this board is an electricians board and things like the Life Safety Code, ADA and the IBC barely register we won’t go into our rant about the failures of the wonderful IBC. I –wire, on at all times generally is not construed to mean that emergency power is required. I can see how you could get there, but it just means the lights need to be un-switched and on when it is dark. However, the exit discharge is not the same thing as bringing people out to the public way. So at least in the IBC, I believe you are correct about needing at least one emergency light over the exterior of the exit door. Dave, you and I-wire seem to be going at it a little bit. The problem with code issues that directly involve the life safety parts of the building code (emergency lighting, firewalls, fire alarms, sprinkler systems, etc,) is that you start mixing two code sources. And even if your two sources are from the NFPA (101 life safety and 70 National Electric Code), there are going to be discrepancies in language and intent. Did the issuers of the life safety code thing that they needed two heads outside the exit door? It is unlikely they even thought about it much. I am sure they thought that they were fine leaving the electrical stuff to the NEC people. And of course the NEC people are not in a position to know it the Life Safety People have change their part of the code on them. In fact the NEC intentionally ignores “building code” issues because they simply cannot predict which code the NEC will be enforced under. Thus I would have to say that while I respect your knowledge, I think your response was a little too “emphatically correct” for such a grey area. I-wire, I get shivers when I think of the idea of the NFPA being some sort of final arbitrator of the code. I have been to inspector conferences (where contractors are invited) and questions will be asked of a panel of knowledgeable industry people, most of whom are on various NFPA code committees, and you will never guess what happens. They argue. They argue a lot. And they aren’t even as clever as many of the people on this forum who realize that there are other codes that may impact what the NEC pronounces on a subject. And many of the questions they argue over are very basic (example: where to use bonding bushings in boxes with concentric knock outs: at one end or both). So what do I think? For IBC-NEC combination: one emergency light at exterior of emergency door exit, with lights that are on when it is dark sufficient to reach the public way (the parking lot or street). For other code combinations: I don’t know. |
| Dave Nix | Hi Russ, Thanks for joining in! I agree with you on all accounts. Thanks for your input about the meetings and code experts. It is interesting to be at these meetings and listen to different points of view and to have the chance to compare notes with others. Thanks again, |
| iwire | A fresh start with a good attitude. quote: Dave I feel that is our basic disagreement. While I agree the code does not say how many sources of light we must have it does say one is not enough if the failure of one lamp (source of illumination) will leave an area in total darkness. Part of 700.16 (full text posted above) quote: Now IMO and the opinion of the inspectors I deal with this results in needing two sources of light or more directly, two lamps and two ballasts if the fixture(s) in question use ballasts. Does that mean I think that is that case through out the USA?....no way. Do I think my area does it right and other areas do it wrong?....no way. All I have said in my posts is that the AHJ in the posters area may require two lamps. Please keep an open mind as you read this. If the area outside the door is dark enough to need one lamp for the safe exit of the occupants, the failure of that one lamp leaves a dangerous condition in my opinion Dave knows I posted this question in another electrical forum and the only response so far was from an engineer who says his AHJ requires two lamps also. As a result that engineer specifies two lamp wall packs. quote: I agree with that entirely however that is not what we are talking about here. Having two sources of power to one source of illumination will be of no help if the lamp is kaput.The section I keep referencing, 700.16 is only about illumination, that section has nothing to do with the power supplying the illumination. Dave I have no problem accepting that in some areas one lamp is OK why do you have problem accepting some areas require two? Look at the different ways service conductors are treated across the country. My area... I can bring SE cable in the building about 5' to the service disconnect in the basement. Ryan J's area...Only about 4" of service conductors inside the building at all. A panel inside back to back with the meter socket is as far as that area allows. Califonia...They use a mast that runs done inside the wall of the dwelling to a flush mounted service disconnect. My point is there is no way to say "This is a Code Fact" and apply that across the country. quote: Again you and I differ, in my State the local inspector is not the AHJ, they are an inspector plan and simple they do not make code interpretations, they enforce the MEC, an amended NEC. If I disagree with a local inspector I can go to the State and they can tell the inspector what to do. I have never had to do that. Russ I too thank you for joining in and have no problem believing that a meeting of inspectors (and contractors) results in more than a few disagreements. You said "I get shivers when I think of the idea of the NFPA being some sort of final arbitrator of the code" That may be so, but in most States isn't that exactly how it is. I believe some States have it set up that they are the source of official interpretations. Bob |
| iwire | DOH!
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| iwire | I am just finishing up an office remodel, got my final inspection on Monday 11/22. The emergency lighting is provided by generator. The inspector had an issue with four rooms, a small lobby, the mens & ladies room and a small single shower room. The problem was the number of lamps powered from the generator circuits. I wired each area per the prints; In the lobby there where about 10 fixtures powered by 'normal' power only one fixture from the emergency circuit. The shower room only had 3 total fixtures two on normal one on emergency. The mens & ladies rooms each had 4 total fixtures, 3 on normal 1 on emergency. In each of these rooms the inspector cited a 700.16 violation, and I agree with his call. I had to connect one more fixture to the emergency circuit in each of these spaces. I feel this is exactly what 700.16 is about, do you think the inspector is misreading the section? I already had two sources of power but I only had one source of illumination The failure of one lamp would during a power failure leave these rooms dark or completely dark. The lobby had a large glass wall that would let light spill in from other emergency fixtures. Should I have fought him on the "total darkness" issue or should I take the high road and realize it just may save someone in an emergency? I refuse to take shortcuts with life safety systems! I take article 700 issues very seriously, (edit: I am sure Dave does too) something that really bothers me is when people use the article 700 circuits to power loads that are not needed for emergences. But that is a subject for another thread. Bob |
| RS377 | quote: I believe that cost is the only reason that we aren't required to have more energy efficent things in our homes. You can alwasy stick it to business becasue they have tons of money 
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| David Hyatt | If the light switches for the over head lighting in a warehouse is on the opposite wall as the panel, and one of the emergency lights is on the same wall as the panel, could you :::: 1)Run one homerun conduit for the lights and another homerun conduit to the emergency light and just tap them on the same circuit in the panel, would this be within code???? 2)Is there a way for an electricain to determine how many emergency lights to be installed? 3) If you have two exit doors side by side divided by a beam, could you install one exit light on the beam between them? Then they can chose which door to exit. |
| David Hyatt | Anyone?????????? |
| Ryan_J | 1) Yes, this is legal. See 701.11(E) [I think, I don't have the book in front of me], and see its exception. Also, 312.8 allows you to splice in the panel. 2) You need 1 foot candle at the floor in all spaces that require two exits because of the building code. 3) Yes. David: I'll be out of town all week teaching, but you if you still have my cell number, feel free to call it. I'll return your call on a break or lunch. :) |