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| Subject - GFCI Protection Required For Vending Machines | |
| iwire |
2005 NECquote:  This applies inside or out in all occupancies, there are no exceptions. |
| JimmyDee | I need to understand, so someone please help me to do so. Why would this new rule come into play. What possible reason is there for this? The installation for outside is already covered several codes back so this is added primarily for inside a building. The only thing I can think of is to protect a repair person. Jim |
| iwire | quote: According to the IAEI there have been reports of incidents where individuals were subjected to shock by coming in contact with energized conductive surfaces of vending machines and, unfortunately some have resulted in electrocutions. In other words the cords get damaged, grounding conductors get broken and hot conductors exposed. Or the machine might just be a piece of junk like the one I took a photo of.    I would not bet my life that this machine is properly grounded.  quote: Covered where? Until 2005 there was no requirement that outdoor receptacles shall have GFCI protection other than the ones at dwelling units. The good part of this is in a fairly short time the newer machines will replace the older ones. Bob |
| JimmyDee | How many of the vending machines that are hooked up like the one in your picture do you think will remain on a good, working GFCI after it trips every time it rains. My concern is that we are trying to legislate stupidity out of all electrical concerns. Like I have said, I'm in favor of GFCIs and think they are great life saving devices. I have them installed in my house as per the 2002 code just for the protection aspect of them. (house built in 1960) My washing machine will never be on one or the dishwasher either. The equipment ground is adequate protection IMOHO. I will admit that my devices for power do not look like the picture above. We as a society are trying to make everything idiot proof at the intelligent persons cost, and idiot proofing isn't going to happen. DARWIN LIVES. Jim |
| lctrc789 | Jimmy, I have to agree with you here. After all these GFCIs are hooked up and in a short time they will get replaced with regular recpts. I live right on a lake and the soda machines here are in good working order but the water and the moisture would make them trip all the time.m I have to say that the code is good in saving lives and we are stilllearning even today but the thought of many appliances on GFCI s is really going to be a problem down the road. Many of the lake livers have cussed more than once at the GFCIs that we have but do know what they are for PROTECTION. They do respect them , but cuss them when they trip because of a moisture problem a lot. A certain amount of these folks have replaced them with regular recpts, saying something to them is like talking to a wall. People live for conveience and don't think a whole lot about safety for the most part. |
| iwire | Guys I am not following your logic. This is how I am hearing what you are saying. We should not try to save lives because even if we install GFCIs some people will remove them if they trip. Well no doubt some of the GFCIs will be removed, you do not have to convince me of this, I believe it. Lets say that 25% of the GFCIs get removed (I doubt it will be that many) that still leaves 75% of them in place. I agree we can not and should not try to protect people from their own stupidity that is not practical. However I do think the NEC is right in trying to protect the public from others stupidity. Like is the case with vending machines. You give your kid some change to go to a vending machine for an ice cream they end up dead...electrocuted. Why? Because a vending machine owner did not have the good sense to keep the machine serviced and in good repair. Is it your fault, is it your kids fault? It is the job of the NEC to protect you, your kids, and the rest of us from the hazards of electricity. quote: The deaths are real, think about how you would feel if a member of your family was killed, when a $12.00 GFCI receptacle would have saved them. quote: Well it is a start, but the deaths in commercial kitchens and from vending machines where caused by equipment already required to be grounded. For what ever reason the grounding either failed or was not connected. You should try to remember that there are literally millions of vending machines (hmm is a slot machine a vending machine?) in the united states. If only 1% of them have an electrical problem that still means thousands of possible electrocutions. Whatever our personal opinions are the rules are in place and will soon be adopted in most areas of the country. Hey I do not have all the answers but I can not understand the reluctance to the GFCI rules. Bottom line GFCIs have and will continue to save lives, if some food ends up spoiled along the way so be it. Bob |
| Ryan_J | I agree with Bob. The fact of the matter is that the new UL requirements for GFCI protection afford much better protection with substantially less "nuisance" tripping then ever before. GFCI's are a good thing guys. I'm not saying we need to start protecting every circuit, I am just saying that, like Bob, I dob't understand what you guys have against them. By the way...I think this change has no business being in the code. I think it should be a NEMA or UL issue, not an NEC issue. How am I as the AHJ supposed to enforce this? I don't think I want to spend too much time being the vending machine police, ya know? |
| iwire | quote: I hear you Ryan and agree  you should not be checking for integral GFCIs.I do think you should be checking for GFCI outlets for vending machines just like you will have to for boat hoists. However the way the code section is written you will have to check the machine. IMO the code should simply say receptacles for vending machines shall have GFCI protection. The NEC should stay out of the design of appliances. Bob |