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| Subject - Perhaps the biggest change of all? | |
| Ryan_J |
410.73(G) Disconnecting means. Effective January 1, 2008 quote: What are your thoughts? |
| JimmyDee | I've changed 1000s of ballasts while the fixtures were hot. I think this is an addition to protect the $6.00 an hour cleaning ladies that they want to change ballasts for the companies like Wa**Mart etc. We are making it easier for companies to have unqualified workers do their maintenance work. We are adding what I feel is a lot of unnecessary cost to a job installation. Electrical work is a dangerous occupation and should be done by qualified personnel. Knowing what you are doing, there is no need for a disconnect to be installed. Jim |
| iwire | Jim I would never say that I have not done the same and will again but it is an OSHA violation to change ballasts hot. Getting caught can lead to a large fine, $5000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 depending on OSHAs mood. There is an exception that you might be able to use but even with the exception you would need to be suited up for live work. I also have a problem with non electricians changing ballasts, it is money out of our pockets. |
| KSsparky | I'm with Jim, protecting a qualified, license electrician with the disconnect called for is redundant. Anyone with any business changing out the ballast is going to understand the danger involved and act accordingly. And yes, we all know OSHA would like to protect us from any conceivable danger, but there comes a point where enough is enough. I'm all for making it home safe at the end of the day, but I take the possibly unpopular position that there is an upper limit to the amount of time lost and money spent on safety. You can never make the world idiot-proof anyway. The best protection in our trade is the proper education, for which there is no substitute. |
| iwire | I admitted I have and will change ballasts hot, but if I get caught by OHSA I will be looking for a new job. That would be bad, I have a pretty decent job where I am. This new requirement will make it easer to change ballasts in areas that shutting down the circuit is next to imposable and still not break the 'rules'. By the way, I believe the manufactures will be installing the disconnect not us. |
| Ryan_J | quote:I do too Bob. I think that is why it won't be required until 2008...to let the manufacturer's catch up. |
| Pierre Belarge | The requirement for 2008 is for the manufacturers. I spoke with one of the CMP members who voted on this change, and he said that the data provided to them showed 'electricians' who were killed during routine ballast changeouts, that is the reason this passed. Safety measures are good, and will help to save all lives. As far as keeping our industry for electricians and not for handymen or diyers, that will take more work than changing some code requirements. It will take a very large effort by people in our industry to work in concert to pass the legislation that would require it by law. - and then that will only reduce the numbers. Pierre |
| Scott Vickrey | I will also admit to changing ballasts hot. I never want to do it that way but, sometimes it's alot easier. Sure, the proper thing to do would be to spend whatever amount of time it took to disconnect the circuit but, as you know, people do not like paying four hours for a ballasts change. Personally, I'm glad to see this in the code. I'm sure every electrician has had that thought, while hooking up the circuit hot, Did I make a mistake? Is this sucker going to go off like a shotgun whenever a touch these two wires together? You can check and doublecheck, but you never really know until you touch the wires together. I'm certain that this requirement will be handled in the manufacturing area. I also believe that this will save a few lives, faces and broken arms. Kudos to the code makers on this one. |
| SteveMc | I don't think the change will be all that drastic. Most of the pole lights that I've worked on already have a "disconnect" in the form of a plug between the incoming power and the ballast to allow the ballast to be unplugged and repaired on the ground. Would the same configuration satisfy the requirements of 410.73(G) for fluorescent fixtures and be cost effective as the same time? And if we could get the ballast manufacturers together to install the same style plug it could make changing ballasts hot a lot safer. It would then be possible to just unplug the old ballast and plug in the new. |
| KSsparky | That is an excellent thought, Steve. The ballast manufacturers will probably never standardize, but the quick connect idea is great ! |
| veganfan | At my work place none of lights have plug disconect, and we almost always change them out live. due to the fact if we shot of light we will generaly kill all lights in that area. |
| cs409 | my 2 cents....the more to a fixture, the more to repair,,,bring it on LOL........i see the safety issue.......... |
| lctrc789 | We have a srtict OSHA rule where we do work, We cannot work anything hot unless we have the proper attire: Hard hats, safety glasses, sheilds, rubber blankets, High voltage gloves,and in some cases even more. Always have two qaulified men as well. CAn you work things hot of course you can but the trick is to be very careful right. Lineman work hot lines everyday but again they are in almost always wide open areas, Many electricians are not they are enclosed and in tight areas. I agree with many of you here QUALIFIED personnel only to do the work as stated, But define qualified A maintennance man, a janitor who changes light bulbs and ballasts. This is a sticky situation and if you get caught working something hot or some one does get hurt because they did and OSHA does get involved, LOOKOUT the fines are unreal. A frayed extenison cord cost 2500.00 dollars. an improper scaffold 5000.00 dollars, OSHA is there for protection and of course many folks do not want to pay anyone for three hours to change a ballast or turn off a circuit etc, LOL MAny of us know what we can do as a safe work enviroment, but many take chances and are killed very easily. LOCKOUT TAGOUT procedures for instance is a good one, I seen a guy get knocked from a crane that was locked and tagged out but some one removed the lock (cut it off) while there was a guy on a lift doing work. That is the reason for the changes SAFETY is everyones responsibiltiy, we all want to go home at the end of the day with all of our fingers and hands and arms etc. I think it is a good idea to always be safe and NO ONES life is worth a service call or a Hours pay I know that. Safety will only get better as time goes on many electricians and linemen have lost their lives due to the lack of it. |
| Scott Vickrey | I see one problem with the dreamed of easily changed ballast. If that where to happen, the janitor and everyone else would be changing them. 
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| ravengotu | Yes and in California we have maintence companies that do relamping ..so this would save companies a heap of money when they break the tombstones ...maybe they can change that along with the ballast..hehe |
| Wirenutz | i fail to see how making codes for unqualified help is ever going to have any effect on morbidity/mortality stats... ~W~ |
| boke | Hi I'm boke I sure believe all you above have good reason why to and why not to agree with the change. My personal opinion: I agree with new change. Company where I work has about 1400 employed workers and about 40 maintenance personnel some with good and some with bad electrical background and we had many guys Calling ***** you know what* by changing ballast. So my boss made me responsible to make it little safer. So we came with simple idea to make it company policy that all light fixtures has to have simple Locking Plug, NEMA Configuration L5-30P. Twist Lock Connector Body on the other side to plug in to. Now they simply can unplug Light fixture and do they job. We also enforce lock&tag. Since last year and half we didn't have any problems people to get Zappt. ***on end it will pay it's self out*** boke |
| JimmyDee | Hi Boke, Welcome to the Electrical Knowledge site. I can see you and your company have taken a pro active approach to safely replacing ballasts by persons of all levels of electrical expertise. I hope you continue to post here and feel free to ask questions or give advice. I hope you learn as much as I have here. Jim |
| Eddie Humphreys | What about the light switch?Would that not suffice the inspector?The neutral wire for that particular circuit could also be switched.Problem solved and only a qualified elect. would know how to install it. |
| Ryan_J | The light switch can serve as the disconnect under certain conditions. |
| crose | I think all electricians have done hot work. The biggest thing in doing hot work is respect electricity and don't rush. Putting a fused 5 amp disconnect by the fixture to change ballasts is a good idea. Take the fuse out change the ballast put the fuse back in and your done. Also it eliminates all osha voliations |
| erwin1959 | Mind you they are saying all conductors, even the grounded one shall be removed. So any disconnecting means fuses or light switch in order to satisfly the rule would have to be 3 pole, (Line, neutral and ground would have to be switched). This is for office and commercial application too. |
| KSsparky | I wouldn't have thought they meant the grounding conductor was to be disconnected as well, but it certainly could be interpreted that way. Inspectors, how will you be enforcing this one ? |
| Ryan_J | KS: Erwin is not refering to the equipment ground, he is refering to the grounded (nuetral) conductor. |
| wilyumfk45 | Ive just read most of everyones idea's and pros & cons but I feel to we can do our customers and ourselves a service and implement a in-line fuse like the ones on pole lites to enable us to diagnosis the problem and isolate a potential fire. Then we can allow the manufacture to come up with a safe in-line fuse holder to make everyone safe and comply with the 2008 code. In Your service Bill 
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| wilyumfk45 | quote: I've just read most of everyones idea's the pros & cons but I feel to we can do our customers and ourselves a service and implement a in-line fuse like the ones on pole lites to enable us to diagnosis the problem and isolate a potential fire. Then we can allow the manufacture to come up with a safe in-line fuse holder to make everyone safe and comply with the 2008 code. In Your service Bill |
| powerup | The primary motivation for most new code changes is profit. Typically something that adds material to the job with minimum labor, thereby maximizing profit for the contractor. If you don’t believe that then try: Too many times ballasts are changed hot because turning off the switch or circuit breaker kills all the light in the room. It can be changed hot, or in the dark. Modern department stores do not always have convenient control of their lighting. Some are handled by computers in another state. Another reason to change them hot. On the bright side, this could prove to be a wonderful troubleshooting tool, or even a way to isolate a bad fixture until a more convenient time for repair. In general, I would have to come out against it. The industry is becoming too over priced already. I don’t think there is enough safety, or convenience, in this to matter. The cost is unjustifiable. |
| Alfred | I,too have changed ballast hot. Now it seems a popular thing to do is not too. I also worked for a company that required all personnel not to change them out hot. My experiences have seen unqualfied persons making numerious mistakes even in the simple things in electricial work. When I was allowed to change them out hot if I got shocked I'd remembered it! Thanks Alfred Johnson 
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| clars | Jimmydee, I think changing a ballast hot is safe as long as the person is properly trained and observes certain safety procedures. I am reluctant to do so on 277 volt fixtures, unless I have no other choice. |
| Alfred | CLars Changing ballast in light fixtures can be a snap (for the well- trained individual). I' ve used a procedure for many years, a step by step process that has never failed. Step 1- after the light fixture is open ( cover off and lamps removed ), disconnect the hot first, then the neutral. Step 2- snip all to the ballast wires leaving room for make-up. Step 3- reverse this process. Step 4- keep all nerves in check and breath . Remain focused at all times. Everytime I have been shocked my focus has beeen disturbed. Follow this procedure and you will never fail. Thanks Alfred Johnson 
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| INDIANA | I personally think that Jimmy is right if you have qualified people working on lights, recp. or what ever it may be, typically there is not a problem. Whoever says they have not worked ballasts or lights hot, #1 has not been doing electric very long or #2 never made thereself or there contractor any money......... The code change is one more idea to make things cost more for no apparent reason, to much government!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Robertalphonso | Let's back up to the original text. Exemption #4 states: "A disconnecting means shall not be required in industrial establishments with restricted public access where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation by written proedures". I appears to me that most of the respondents to this topic probably work in a facility that would fall under these guidelines (pretty sure the facility where I work could be construed to fall under this definition). So, probably a mute point for a lot of us. And the facilities most likely to be affected will be the Wal-marts that won't employ the truely qualified, so need this type of safeguard. One more thing... the grounded conductor issue (I'm sure most of you are aware of the difference, but it appeears that there are a few that are unclear). The ground wire is not a conductor... at least it is not supposed to be! |