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| Subject - New GFCI requirements | |
| Ryan_J |
Residential change: Item (7) revised to read: quote: My thoughts: Good change for what its worth. Most people already thought it was required, so the GFCI's were being installed anyway. Thing to look out for: Washing machines within 6' of the laundry sink. Commercial changes: Items (2) which was previously item (3) revised to read: quote: New item (4) reads: quote: New item (5) reads: quote: Some thoughts: Item 2 is a good change, as it gives the AHJ some direction to follow. It still, however, does not tell me where a kitchen ends or where it begins. For example, I hae a 1,000 office area. It has a sink and built in microwave in one corner. Does the other outlet in the same room, but 100' away need protection. Also, very bad code language in the text...I already have two changes written for the 2008 cycle on this requirement, both to address NEC style manual descrepancies. Item 4: Good enough for me. :) Most people are already installing it, and most engineer's have always spec'd it. Poor code language again (against the NEC style manual) has me writing a proposal for the 2008 cycle already. Item 5: Good change. Most people are already installing it, and most engineer's have always spec'd it. 210.8(C) is new, and does not address receptacle outlets, but outlets in general. quote: My thoughts: Works for me....I live in Utah, we don't have very many residential boat hoists, in fact, I've never seen one. |
| David Hyatt | quote: You can install single outlet, right? |
| Ryan_J | quote: Nope. There are no exceptions to this requirement. Alot of people have the misunderstanding that the single outlet exception pertains to all requirements of 210.8. It only applies to garages and unfinished basements. If your washer is within 6' of the sonk, you will install a GFCI. |
| Ryan_J | New thought: Regarding wet bar sinks, what if the sink has a garbage disposal in it? I hate to say it, but I think it would have to be GFCI as well. |
| David Hyatt | The disposal is hard wired say I would say no. |
| Ryan_J | quote: OK. Most of the time in my area they are cord and plug, and the dishwasher is hard wired. Interesting how different areas do things. |
| cs409 | going ot be interesting,,,,fix some areas, created more problems in others,,,,, |
| Ryan_J | quote: Agreed. Question for you though: Do you really think that plugging a washer into a GFCI will create a problem? I don't we get the same nuissance trips now that we got in 1970. |
| JimmyDee | quote: If the installer has used metal staples, yes I think there will be a ton of nuisance trips. Plastic staples, not as many. I get nuisance trips by turning off my bathroom fan. One out of every ten times. These GFCIs are less than 2 years old. I really think that using a GFCI for the washer/dryer is stupid. There is no practical reason to do it. Jim |
| Ryan_J | quote: Jim: I wouldn't consider a metal staple peircing an NM cable a nuisance trip. I would think that that is the GFCI doing it's job. |
| JimmyDee | quote: Something I learned a long time ago. Not sure why it works but a metal staple use on romex and when a motor is shut off, will cause a small inductive kick back that is enough to trip a GFCI. The plastic ones will not do that. That is one of the major reasons the old wiring has trouble with their GFCIs. Now with this said, I may be totally wrong about this but several electricians in this area seem to be in agreement about using plastic staples on GFCI circuits. Is just this a local myth or what. I know you were trying to be cute about this but nowhere did I say anything about a metal staple penetrating the NM cable. But to the point of the thread, why would one need a GFCI on a laundry receptacle no mater where it is located. It is a 20 amp dedicated outlet for the laundry equipment. Is this one of these new pie in the sky things that maybe, just maybe, someday someone will plug something into the laundry plug. Sure isn't the handiest place to reach over the washing machine, unplug it and plug into the plug. I'll even bet when the washing machine cord is dropped behind the washer after it is unplugged and the wife/mother has to move the washer away from the wall to retrieve it will bring tons of joy to her. Jim |
| Ryan_J | Jim: I wasn't trying to be cute or argumentative. I agree that I "read into" a metal staple peircing the insulation, but I just don't see how a metal staple could cause inductive reacatance through the conductor insulation and through the cable sheath. I'm not saying it can't happen, I've just never heard of it. As far as the washer goes, I agree, I don't see alot of people using the receptacle. But, then again, there is only one required receptacle in a laundry room, and if that is all that gets installed, well, who knows? |
| aussiesparky | H'mmm Interesting conversation to GFCI, or not to GFCI, Washing M/C, Dryers, Dishwashers & garbage disposals. All the equipment listed is cord and plug DU. Our code DU has made it simple. GFCI ALL residential and commercial socket outlets end of story. |
| Ryan_J | Andrew: Do you guys have any problems with nuisance tripping? I really don't think GFCI's are the problem that they were 20 years ago. |
| Pierre Belarge | hello Ryan To throw a little monkey wrench into this :) ... You mention 'laundry room'. The actual wording is 'laundry area'. So if there is a laundry ROOM in a dwelling, what are the actual requirements as far as receptacle outlet placement? What are the requirements as far as which receptacles in that ROOM are required to be supplied by the Laundry circuit, and if there are receptacle outlets in the laundry room that supply other than laundry equipment, do they all require supply from the laundry circuit? Pierre |
| cs409 | wow,,,,,,, metal staples have never been a problem as for as i can remember with tripping gfci,,,but one never knows.... as for gfci on a washer, dryer(gas type), or any other item such as ref, freezer etc,,i dont think gfci is the answer,,,,just to many trips for no reason! if the circuit is wired correct with proper EGC,,,then u should be fine... |
| aussiesparky | Ryan We certainly don't have any nuisance tripping problems. Appliance construction has improved over the last 20 years as well! |
| Ryan_J | Pierre: thats a great question, the whole area vs. room bit, just like in the batrhroom area. I think its a case by case basis really, although I can't remember a laundry area that I couldn't define with 4 walls and a doorway...maybe I've just been lucky so far! |
| JimmyDee | My laundry area is actually a rest room with a sink, stool and 3 additional recepticals. 2 distincally different functions of the room behind one door. Where does the laundry room stop and the restroom start? Jim |
| Pierre Belarge | Laundry area - in an open basement, the laundry equipment in one corner of the basement. How about the laundry equipment we see in bathrooms?  Pierre |
| lctrc789 | Being a part time electrical inspector in a small town and county and working in a major city. I would say this to the New GFCI rule. We probably will not adopt the new code anyway till 2006 sometime. Washing machines, freezers,120 volt dryers, refrigerators. or any stationary appliance that the outlet is designated for that reason will not have to be GFCI protected. I would probably gender to say that we will look in to this and if it is code and written in such a way that any appliance is to be on it, we will have them mark these outlets as an outlet for WASHER< DRYER< REFRIGERATOR<, etc, and on the recpt plate mark it NO GFCI protection. We had a problem with some guys doing this before and the homeowners just take them out or have some one take them out anyway. IMO it is real stupid to put any appliance that has a motor, or is not intended for personal protection of people, on a GFCI that could trip and cause annoying headaches. GFCI s are for personal protection of personnel not for appliances etc. |
| Ryan_J | Pat: It sounds to me like you are setting yourself up for a lawsuit. If the GFCI trips and the washer stops working, maybe there is a problem with the washer that needs analyzing. What if there is enough leakage current on the appliance that a breaker won't trip and its enough to stop a heart? Remember that is how 210.8(B)(3) of the 2002 got into the code. What if you were the inspector on the commercial kitchen where the guy got killed? What would you tell the judge and jury? In my opinion, there should be no problems with a properly operating washer on a GFCI. |
| iwire | quote: There is no reason the loads you describe can not be on a GFCI, as a matter of code (2002) all 120 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles in commercial kitchens must be GFCI protected, no exceptions at all. This is still for personal protection it has nothing to do with equipment protection. People had died in commercial kitchens as a result of lethal shocks from faulty equipment plugged into standard outlets. That is the reason this GFCI requirement was put into the code. In my opinion we will see GFCIs required in more locations each code cycle. In Europe dwelling units are required to have GFCI main, the trip level is higher than ours but it still saves lives. 
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| Pierre Belarge | I agree with Ryan and Bob. There is no reason this equipment needs to be bypassed from GFCI requirements. There is also another new requirement in the '05 that makes putting vending machines in public spaces to be protected by GFCI. Would your AHJ bypass that as well? ... A sure path to litigation!!! Pierre |
| veganfan | quote: A staple peircing a NM cable would fall under AFCI protection not GFCI correct? 
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| Ryan_J | I agree Veganfan |
| lctrc789 | I think many of you are thinking that I am referring to all GFCI s I am not, I am merely stating that in residential applications for GFCI s to be put on any appliance like washing mashines, in an area where only a washing machine can be plugged in to nothing else. It is true that many appliances can run on a GFCI that will trip the difference in the load side of the hot and neutral at less then 10 milliamps. I agree but when you have an appliance that is dedicated for an appliance it is just that. GFCI S are for personnel protection, I am not saying that in a commercial application where the floors can be soaking wet that thye are not needed I am saying in a residntial application, that is what I thought we were referring to. I think you are also referring to the GFCI protection of personnel or people,as sated in article 100 under that category and confusing it with as say 1200 amp service that has fault protection as a main trip device. A large service that has fault current protection HAS NOTHING TO DO with people protection at all. That is for line to ground faults and is used to open ungrounded conductors of the faulted circuits. If you had a MAIN GFCI breaker in any application set at 5 to 10 milliamps you would be re setting it every 2 minutes or less. I am stating that in a residential application, as far as I am concerned an appliance that is dedicated to and for an appliance, is just that. If you honestly installed a GFCI circuit on many appliances that could get a little wet on the cord or any part of that appliance that would cause a fault it would trip. Imagine a homeowner if his washer kept tripping or his freezer or fridge, you know that they will take it off of that and install a regular recpt. I am referring to a HOME only not any commercial or other use here. Lawsuits come and go and many homeowners do their own thing anyway, so in a commercial application many do not. I hope this will help you to beter undertsand what I am referring to. |
| iwire | Hi Pat  First rest assured that Ryan and I know the difference between service / feeder GFP equipment protection and GFCI protection for personal. To keep this short I will only ask a question. What possible reason would there be not to GFCI protect the equipment in question? Unless there is a problem with the washer it will run fine on a GFCI, if it trips the GFCI there is a problem with the washer. |
| Ryan_J | Ditto Bob. |
| lctrc789 | I will tell you this 9 years ago we did a large job for the city housing authority, the spec sheets called for all counter recpts to be installed on GFCI s as well as Disposals and laundry circuits. We had questioned this in 7 of 12 minute meetings each time we were told we had to abide by the spec sheets. We rewired these units 200 with new 200 amp services and brought all things to new Code by their specs. In one years time the maintenance men had taken out 92 GFCI recpts in all. The disposals were tripping the washing machines were tripping out, and this caused a major problem. Now you want to know why they would trip, well a wet or damp cord will trip a GFCI and that was the biggest part of the problem. IN these apartments which is section 8 and HUD needless to say that this was a problem in all. They got more calls that circuits were out in one year then they have in 25 total years. We had a meeting with the City inspector, the engineer and the architect, we decided that the 72 units we had re wired all the GFCI recpts at the washing machine and disposal recpts were to be removed. A total of 144 recpts that had to be removed total. Maintenance crews had already ready removed over 90 of them. The conclusion that the city inspector and enginner came up with was this, The disposal, water in the unit itself caused the GFCI to trip needlessly still grounded and safe now all have to be hard wired (which is what we wanted to do in the first place.) The washine machine outlets tripped constantly either moisture related or dampness because of poor dryer vents THEY WERE NOT CLEAR ON THIS EITHER< however the washine machine outlets were 36 inches AFF behind the washer units. Again properly grounded and installed in a way that only the appliance can be used for that reason the city and the engineers decided to make them just that. I am referring to residential applications here not commercial kitchens where floors get soaking wet. I Am sure many of you have had countless GFCI trip when cords are plugged in and or even chargers for lifts, etc. Bottom line they do not work well when something can cause a minor trip just as many of these appliances do at 5 milliamps I am not knocking the code I think it is a bad idea for this in a residential application thats all.. I have been in thousands of homes and seen people change things on their own for their own conveinence not safety and this will cause this type of problem I think. I can only tell people that hey this is against code and can be unsafe, and they can tell me unsafe or not I am not going to be here resetting this damn thing every two minutes. I have been there before. IN commercial applications I do understand trust me but not many people get a shock from their washing machine or disposal if it is grounded properly more people get killed in homes smoking in bed then by shocks, commercial applications have higher voltages, higher amperages and terrible circumstances wet floors greasy floors etc. |
| JimmyDee | quote:I would like to know what protection is the equipment actually better from the GFCI? I tend to agree with lctrc789's last post. This is where it will end up before we are done. I'm not against GFCIs. I've installed them where by the code this house was built with, were not necessary. My house is up to date code wise, with GFCIs but will not do the 2005 ones. Jim |
| lctrc789 | Thanks Jimmy I thought every one was going to eat me alive on this, LOL I am aware that they do save lives in many cases but in this case they will change the code again I assure you that. After that city job I shook my head, and stated what a waste of time and money the taxpayers money at that. HUD and Federal regulations supersede the codes by anyone but this one on these apartments was a major goof. It was estimated that the cost of installing and the maintanance crews removing and we had to go back to uninstall and the cost of paperwork and the regular red tape for this was 45,000.00 dollars I see no reason for a stationary appliance to be GFCI protected at all. If that recpt is for that appliance you mark it for that reason only. Many years ago when the code stated that all Recpts. in garages were to be GFCI protected we came up with some exceptions to that. Point in case many people put freezers or refrigerators in their garages, after so many calls to the office and city inspector that freezers and refrigerators had kicked the gfcis out We had all contractors install GFCIs were needed for personnel protection only and mark them that way. If that recpts was for an appliance or freezer or fridge it was marked for that only. You can say what you want that things should work on them but it doesn't take much to trip these out we all know that. A 5 milliamp load on a motor or compressor could happen very easily when they surge or spike it happpens everyday in all jobs and homes > |
| Ryan_J | I still don't see the issue with an appliance on a GFCI. Like Bob said, if the device is tripping, that is because there is something wrong with the appliance. |
| JimmyDee | I'm sure that the GFCIs trip out when the motors are shut off. There is an inductive kick back that takes place when de-energized. My bathroom GFCIs trip when the exhaust fan is shut off. I'm not sure why this does trip the GFCIs but it does. In industry, we had to put MOVs on small ice cube relays that were paralleled with motor starter coils for the same reason. The ice cubes had 2 diodes in them to keep the humming down on the relays. The inductive kick back would blow the diodes out every 1-4 months. MOVs to limit the voltage cured this 100%. Jim |
| iwire | I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong with that. I want to say a few more things never the less. quote: This comes as quite a surprise to me. I regularly work on construction projects with 20 to 500+ workers, each and every receptacle in use is a GFCI. From these GFCIs workers use electric motors from low current screw guns to high current chop saws, pipe threaders etc. The only time we have trips is from water or defective tools and cords.quote: I agree that motors or any coil being shut off can create a problem for electronics and I have had to place MOV on relay coils also to protect the electronics controlling them. As I understand it when a coil is shut down a high voltage spike is sent back on the lines. This voltage will not trip a GFCI, GFCIs monitor current not voltage and if this spike does create current it will be equal on both lines. GFCIs only react to unequal current on the line conductors. The spike might fry the GFCI electronics resulting in a GFCI that never trips. quote: The voltages and amperages are the same, 15 & 20 amp 120 volt receptacle outlets. quote: How many people does it take to be killed or injured before we should install a $12 GFCI outlet that will work fine on motors? Lets go back the commercial kitchen requirement which has been in effect for a couple of years now. If GFCIs will not work on refrigerators how are these places keeping the food cold? No matter how you feel about GFCIs the NEC will be requiring them in more locations, the NEC does not give a rats behind about a little inconvenience. The bottom line is that GFCIs do save lives. There are ways to reduce nuisance tripping. Use GFCI outlets at each load. The use of GFCI breakers to feed multiple loads can be a problem. Each piece of equipment has some leakage current and the total leakage current can add up to trip a GFCI. If you do use a GFCI breaker or receptacle to protect down stream devices keep the wire run short. The inductive coupling of the ungrounded conductor to the grounding conductor can cause enough current imbalance to trip the GFCI. We had a problem with GFCI breakers protecting florescent recessed lighting at a hotels indoor pool. The use of GFCIs for this was a design decision by the engineer. The problem was that the GFCI would trip every few days. The solution was not to eliminate the GFCI but to cut the circuit in half so that we now had two GFCIs protecting say 10 fixtures in stead of one GFCI protecting 20 fixtures. Now the the total leakage current is low enough not to trip the GFCI. Thanks for listening to my rantings, I do put my money where my mouth is, my single 20 amp garage circuit and my basement sump pump are both running fine on GFCIs Bob |
| iwire | A couple of other areas where motor loads and GFCIs work together are pool pumps and hot tubs. One of the big reasons GFCIs got a bad rap for refrigerators had nothing to do with the motors. It had to do with the electric defrosting elements in many of the older refrigerators and freezers. The leakage current on these elements would trip the GFCI as soon as the defrost cycle started. The NEC handbook has this info and claims that this problem has been addressed by UL. |
| NORCAL | The only problem I see is if a GFCI receptacle is placed behind a washer or other appliance where is inconvenient to reset it. |
| Pierre Belarge | I would like to add to Bob's post - as I believe it is an important subject, and Bob has brought out some important items. The GFCIs today are built with better electronics and can themselves withstand the environment they are installed in better. With tripping due to surges being one of the improvements. Some people say that the GFCIs are too sensitive, but remember that the length of conductor in the circuit increases the leakage as well. installing a lot of receptacles on the loadside of the GFCI will increase the available leakage current and have an effect on the total circuit. |
| iwire | quote: Can't argue with that, I am in the habit of mounting washer and dryer outlets at 48" anyway.
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| goodwill | the AHJ in my area considers the washing machine outlet "not readily accessible". top of the box at 36" is lower than top of washer. |
| JimmyDee | quote: Goodwill, I welcome you to the Electrical Knowledge web site. I think you AHJ has wisdom in this decision but may get himself in some deep problems in the future. I happen to agree with his decision but is it going to fly if litigation comes into being? Jim |
| ravengotu | soon all GFCI recepts everywhere,sometimes the code book must get a kick back from the manufactuer of devices as they come up with some bad things..whats next disconnects for the washer dryer .... |
| JimmyDee | quote: Allready has them. They are called plugs. Jim |
| goodwill | jimmy dee, thanks for the welcome.... can you specify a situation where litigation would come into play; where the AHJ's decision would be put into question? just curious. |
| JimmyDee | quote: Sink within 6' of the dryer plug and AHJ says it is non assessable because of the location. Home owner moves the washer and dryer or has it out for repair. Teen girl plugs her hair tools (whatever they might be) into the W/D plug and gets killed because she sticks here hand in the sink. I would say the electrician and AHJ are in for a court fight. Jim |
| lctrc789 | Jimmy. I see the point in your post could be a dangerous situation here for sure. However if the recpt. cover was marked for washer only not a GFCI protected outlet, whom would that fall back on to the electrical contractoror the person using it. We work in an industrial company everyday, with many temporary panels, marked GFCI outlets, there are several that are marked 120 volts welder recpts. only. As per the companies request and the pipe fitters these do not use GFCI recpts, because they do trip a lot. When an individual plugs his cords or tools in to these he or she is caught they are requested to the leave the job and cannot return. IOSHA approved this because of the conflict of GFCI and equipment that uses 120 volts and cannot be used for equipment. As long as they are marked for specific uses they cannot be used as personnel protection. They are clearly marked and checked each week by a group of competent people. I think we have to have some guidllines for this, as to what can and cannot be used on GFCI s, but the homeowners and people who use them need to take some responibilty to them as well. What do you think on this. I think that falls under the category of an electrician who just left a residence and changed all the 30 amp fuses to 15 amp type and the homeowner kept blowing fuses and they overloaded circuit. Then of course a fire who is responsible for this HOMEOWNER OR CONTRACTOR. |
| goodwill | Ictrc, good points. if it's a designated circuit, with a single recp., and marked...who's fault then? I'm glad I'm not a lawyer, but also it's good that guys like JimmyDee point out these possiblilties, because we have to protect the homeowner, but also ourselves..legally "CYA". (cover your axx) it's good to think beyond just "well the AHJ says it passes, so it's ok". not just this situation, but on all installs. One point I would have to bring up though, is with these "Builders" who nickle and dime the subs on every house built. who pays for the extra cost of the GFI "not needed, per the AHJ?" I know you'll say "eating the cost of the GFI is a lot cheaper than a law suit", but this is a cut-throat business and sometimes we have to resist the urge the "idiot-proof" everything. just thinking out loud. |
| RS377 | quote: Not to be too much of a pain here, but doesn't this open up a lot of things using this reasoning? The dishwasher plug and gas stove ignitor plug come to mind, as my stove is going to be dead any week now. |
| iwire | I do not understand all the opposition to GFCI protection. quote: If someone gets hurt this "IOSHA approval" will mean nothing in court, good luck.  We will have to adjust and get used to it, here is another 2005 GFCI requirement. http://www.electricalknowledge.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=737 |
| JimmyDee | quote: I don't think there is any opposition to the GFCIs. I think the key word here is "protection". If there is, in fact, some level of protection that is derived from the use of a GFCI, I'm in total agreement. If there is no perceived protection and they are going to be a pain in the hind side, that is a different story. I've believed in GFCIs since the day they were first available for installation but there are situations that I think they are just not necessary and someone has blue-skied the "what ifs" and are going to try to protect everyone, no matter how stupid, all the time no matter what the cost. Jim |
| iwire | We are talking about a $12.00 device, in commercial areas where many of the new requirements are aimed $12.00 is not even a consideration. The 12/2 MC cable I use costs $425.00 per 1000', Twisted Shielded fire alarm MC runs about $750.00 per 1000' the one floor office remodel I am doing now (27,000 sq ft) will have about $20,000 in cable alone. A few more GFCIs will not make a difference. :) |
| RS377 | quote: I really don't have any opposition to any added cost in a job. I'll buy whatever is needed to do the job up to code, and then mark it up appropriatley. I'm also the nerd who has never had a problem with a customer changing their mind, its all money into our pockets. One of the concerns I have about it though is that I have always mounted the receptacles in question, in hard to get to locations (36" high behind the washer, behind the oven, etc.). this being the case, are we going to put a device that may need reseting behind a washer, stove, or under a sink? I just think that the amount of protection gained by putting a GFCI in such areas is going to be an enormous pain to homeowners. I'm sure anyone here who has dones service work was gone into a house where there was nothing wrong other than the GFCI tripping. Also, how is the 87 year old grandmother supposed to check the GFCI each month, like the instructions say, if they are tucked behind the furnace, stove, and the like? |
| iwire | quote: You got me there even in a home of young, fit, agile people will a GFCI get tested once a month? I highly doubt it.What I am sure will be coming down the road is self testing GFCIs. I get self testing emergency battery units on the job now. As far as "they are tucked behind the furnace, stove, and the like" that would be the result of a poor installation not the new codes. I typically put washer and dryer outlets at 48" (the same height the plumbers put the water connections) this makes it easy to access the outlet. You can also use a GFCI breaker to meet the code but IMO expecting the 87 year old grandmother to go to the panel is not a great thing either. I do not have my head in the sand there will be some problems implementing this. When the the GFCI requirement for commercial kitchens went into effect a problem that came up was all the interconnected computer equipment, the printers, the display screens etc, that tell the cooks what to make would trip the GFCIs in the kitchen. Because these units have data cabling between them and some types of that cabling carry enough current between the different pieces of equipment the GFCIs would trip. You can bet the manufactures of this equipment have worked out this issue. |
| RS377 | quote: Self testing emergency lights sound very cool. I'm just thinking that if there is a GFI under the sink that has something plugged, no homeowner will ever think to check that. |
| lctrc789 | (RS377, iwire), > The Iosha approval and the approval from the pharmecutical company absolutley gets us in the clear. How do I know simple we are talking a billion dollar project that has been going since 1997, and may not be completed now till 2007 in full. Iosha and the FDA are on this job almost every month or week at any given time, we have had several meetings on safety, The company I am referring to is Eli Lilly one of the only maufactures of human insulin and have been for years. We have been doing work there for over thirty years and this companies safety factors are excellent to say the least. I am not objected to the use of GFCI s at all just where and why and how to place them and for what reason personnel safety. If we start installing them where it becomes a inconveinence what do you think the ordinary people will do of course replace them by themselves or some one else and that is the major problem here. I have seen this since they required them since 1978 for outside recpts. I am not objectional to the new code I say we have to use common sense here that's all. Any piece of equipment can trip a GFCI easily and that becomes a nuisance to say the least. The part I am referring to is this use your judgement on these like i stated the temporary panels we use all have GFCI breakers or recpts,. However the welders that use 120 volt are clearly marked NO GFCI PROTECTION and not for personnel use. IOSHA has been on this job for 7 years that I know of and NO ONE has got a non compliance for this. They are clearly marked for what use they can be used for, however if you get caught using these for any thing other then a welder you are terminated NO QUESTIONS< that puts the liability to the user not the company or the contractor. |
| Image | quote: I would suspect a intermittent micro compression short. The metal staple, probably knifed at an angle when hammered, has applied uneven pressure on the conductor’s insulation. This hypothetical condition could have de-rated the actual insulating value of the wire's dielectric and is allowing an occasional 'over the limit milli-amp' to spill out to the un-insulated ground. Add time and the problem will only be compounded from general distress of the wire and further deterioration of the insulating material. This ‘knifing’ is not very probable with a plastic staple. |
| Mike Delaney | quote:Ryan, What if the washer receptacle was located behind the equiptment, and not readily accessable? |
| lctrc789 | That is the question I am referring to accesible for the use of personal use. If the equipment is in front of the recpt. then it would be used for the eqipment only. I still say the purpose of a GFCi recpt. or circuit is for personal protection not for equipment, and it would be almost absurd to install a washing machine recpt. within 6 feet of a sink where it could be used for personal use as a recpt. for use as for nothing else but the washer only. |
| Ryan_J | Mike: There is no exception for this. The single receptacle thing applies only to unfinished basements and garages of dwelling units. Pat: Did you read the report on proposals for the 2002 where the guy got killed by touching the equipment? I think GFCI is still protecting personnel if it keeps them from dying by touching faulty equipment, don't you? |
| Mike Delaney | When it comes to saving lifes, there is no compromise, install a GFCI! Specially if you can charge for it. |
| lctrc789 | Ryan I did not see the report on this , but was this a residential accident or comm/ind? My whole point of view here is residential (washing machines) not comm/ind equipment. We are talking 2 whole different aspects from homeowners for the most part that do not even know what a GFCI is and comm/ind/ applications where equipment does run for manufacturing purposes etc. |
| nfsus | i got it all figured out - afci and gfci main. think about it. a 2000.00 breaker we could replace every 6 months! tons of work for us and we could milk everyone to death. ar we could go back to dc power. hmmm, just a thought. and why are you guys payin 12.00 for gfci's? i order them for 6.00 |