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| Ek's Home | Forum | Chat | Electrical Links | |
| Subject - Panel schedules | |
| Ryan_J |
New text of 408.4 will make for a change in people's bad habits of panel scheduling. quote: Compare this to the text of the 2002 NEC, which says: quote: It seems quite obvious that the intent here is to make certain a person can't label a 42 circuit panel with 30 of the descriptions reading "lights" and the other dozen reading "plugs". Good change, in my opinion. |
| Pierre Belarge | If the contractor is not paying attention to this, and the inspector is, I see this as becoming a large issue. Imagine the inspector stands in the room the panel is in, and asks the electrician to open the breaker for that room....COSTLY in time and money. Two of the things we always seem to be short of  BTW: I always look for proper labeling in my inspections! Pierre |
| dregsclamber | quote: Where would you stand on a small remodel where only 2 or 3 new circuits have been labeled but the other 30+ are out of wrack? IE..a two pole 60 labeled lights Would the old label be grandfathered or would you see it as the electricians job to bring it to compliance sense he modified the schedule |
| iwire | I have to ask how the heck can I do this in the office spaces I work? We have electric rooms that may have six fully used 42 circuit panels that just feed office cubes (modular furniture) what acceptable description will fit on a panel schedule? The only possible way to make this work is to post prints in the electric rooms and I have done that. The other thing we do when in job specs is to label all outlets and switches with circuit numbers. |
| Pierre Belarge | In my prior post here, I made mention of how costly this may become. Remember that OSHA has a mandate that has been in effect for as long as I can remember, that the panels all be properly labeled - which means the last one in that panel is responsible. Actually I believe that the property owner is responsible, that an electrical contractor is going to have to see just how far this issue is going to be enforced, especially with the new code change. As an EC being aware and proactive is much better than having your head in the sand - we all know what is sticking up in the air when our heads are in the sand...  As an inspector, this is one of the most common violations. It also creates more anger than most any other violation, as in our area it has not been enforced as it should have been until recently. So you can imagine all of the responses. Pierre |
| Wirenutz | quote: i've seen this done and picked up on it myself, wouldn't a # system comply? it has certainly sped up my sercive call time to have had something numerical as opposed to 'third row floor receptacles science wing'or some other despription pertinent to integral knowledge of the structure usage.... ~W~ |
| renosteinke | I disapprove of the code requirement.....I think it is better practice to identify circuits with lables next to, or on, the breakers themselves. Besides the ease of this practice, in identifying the appropriate breaker, how many 'directories' have you seen that are a listing, top down, of all circuits- while the panel itself has TWO columns of breakers? (That is, circuit #2 is listed UNDER circuit #1, while it is located NEXT TO circuit #1?) As others have pointed out, some installs are impossible to clearly identify circuits without a map (I often make one using the 'this way out' maps as a template), and it is often also necessary to identify the breaker at the outlet. This part of code, while exceptionally easy for inspectors to apply, can actually impede the ready identification of a circuit. |
| Wirenutz | i wonder how small i can write in a 1"x 1 1/2" area , and still be considered 'legible'... ~W~ |
| lctrc789 | I do agree with the change that you have to label panels with more then plugs and lights. We have our guys to make lists when all done then send to office and re label them in plastic. The questions that arise are Cubicles how to mark them simple, number the cubes or mark them by the column numbers. We mark our new panels and have for years very cleanly and legibly, this makes it much easier for anyone who has to troubleshoot. Next is what if you just add 3 circuits then are you liable for the entire panel NO you are not and if you have contract you state it that way, you just added 3 circuits for Blah ,Blah and Blah. We have done this this for years and never had a problem. Many people seem to think that the last contractor is responsible for all the existing wiring, panels , etc. The point is they are not, they are responsible for what they have done or what they see is wrong. they should inform the business or homeowner of the code violtaiosn or safety risks and then note them to their own files. As a contractor you are obligated to do your job, by code and with the best possible means to do the job safely, in a timely manner, and be aware of any hazards that do exist rather you have created them or not you must advise of the hazards and inform those who need to know. |
| luckyshadow | What I have found that works for me is ... On new installs I type up the panel schedules on my computer using excel spreadsheet. I size them to fit in the clear plastic pocket provided with the panels plus I talk the supplier into giving me some spare pockets that I use on panels that have no pocket. |
| Mike Delaney | Luckyshadow, I type my scheduels up also on a spread sheet program, with my name and number at the top...people love it. I print them out on sticky back paper, which works well...but I would like to use those plastic holders as well, I think thats a better Idea for expansion. Where do you get those holders? Have you used any software that lets you document how the house was wired??? I've heard of them, but havn't used them, it work also be nice to install that in the holder. |
| Scott Vickrey | I would recommend using card stock for printing your panel schedules. You can find it everywhere and it's really cheap too. Card stock has the same feel as the original panel schedule. Also Lexmark's printers that use durabrite ink are more resistant to water and smudging than regular ink jet printers. |
| luckyshadow | Mike- I currently work for one of the larger companies in Maryland , with 120 men in field, We do commercial and those plastic pockets are attached to the loadcenter covers and we always seem to have some extras in the office. When we are bidding out our panels and gear we just tell the sales rep we want some more of them and they never seem to mind. Good PR on their part- give away $10.00 worth of plastic and look better when we hand over the purchase order for $200,000.00 worth of gear No never used that type of software but would love to look at it Last house I wired I provided an as built drawing showing all the wiring. Home owners loved it |
| LK | Ok we mark circuit #1 Outlet Kens Bedroom, north wall, east wall, south wall, light in Janets bedroom, hallway light, outlet master bedroom west wall, outlet attic light and whatever else in on there. Now there is an emergency and the homeowner, is in panic mode, they get to the load center, and find they have long discriptions to read, Oh yes, i can see it working now. With a circuit leaving the load center, and going to 3 or 4 different locations, how can you mark a location that assures safe disconnect, only a dedicated circuit will assure the shut off will disconnect a single location circuit, where rooms are supplied from two circuits, the owner will really be confused with which breaker controls what, so the only way a homeowner can be sure, is to turn off the main, and this is what they usually end up doing, and now they are in the dark. Why not require a layout plan for every installation, and then post it at the load center, can anyone see this happening? Or require an emergency light at the loadcenter, and just pull the main? The requirement is fine for dedicated circuits. |
| kbsparky | We try to refrain from using names [eg. "Ken's Bedroom"] in descriptions. Too often, those kids grow up and leave, or the house is sold and someone else moves in. Instead, we would use something along the lines of "Front Bedroom, Middle BR, Back BR, etc. North wall, etc. are also acceptable. -Ken |
| LK | Ken, I think you are missing the point, It's the long description needed, to include all outlets on that circuit, and how confusing it can be, and as far as names go, the homeowner will usually insert the names for their use, In my 30 plus years in this business, I have see just about everything marked on a panel, the best one was a job we did last fall, the panel had a five page to from schedule, and two maps of the entire house wiring, it was dated 06/14/74, so there was someone back then doing a complete job, the other one we found was from 1928 it had a complete map of the house K&T wiring along with the Electric Co. that did the install, and the master electrician's name, can you imagine anyone signing there name, to some of the work they do today, and include a dwg with the job. |
| eleccon | I go by the plan names for the rooms, and since you have to use AFCI breakers in the beds now I just keep every room separate. If I'm on a remodel adding a couple of circuits and the panel is not labeled I ask the homeowner if they want to pay to have me label otherwise the inspectors here don't make you do that. |
| lctrc789 | I do agree that new panels should be marked as well as they can be. However when we get in to old work and have so many old circuits that have been changed and rooms that have benn changed it can be painsatkingly a mess. We try to mark all panels with marking that have been printed and then insert in plastic pouches. The problem I see with this in commercial and industrial work is this, we do our job as well as we can and maintennance men go and change things around. In residential we have always marked our panels as west bedroom or north etc, then label each room as we can. We do not use names and so forth. I think it is a good idea , better than seeing plugs and lights marked for everything |
| LK | Pat, Yes, the idea of marking with correct location is good i think we all agree with that, but what do you do when the circuit supplies 4 or 5 different areas, this confuses most homeowners as to which circuit controls what, and in older wiring you may have 2 or 3 different circuits in one room, the identify, is to provide accruate disconnect information, not confusing the homeowner in a panic situation, or have a packet of schedules that make no sense to the homeowner. |
| John A. Peters | In hospitals they put the circuit number on each outlet. |
| LK | John, Yes, the idea fo marking each outlet location, is a good way to identify, we have been doing this for years, If they made cover plates, with an embossed number, they would look much better, then crude varied marking done on site, the problem comes in when the painter removes them and installs them on different outlets now the idenity is gone, so the answer may be recpt's embossed with a number, can you imagine asking for a #4 15A duplex ivory, or a #12 duplex white, or any other style, no manufacture in there right mind would consider a system like this, hot stamping the number at the job site would work, but that takes time, so everyone just keep thinking of that great way to identify circuits. |
| Lghtning4u | I agree, great idea here. I can't count the number of circuits I've had to work on and not able to quickly find the source. |
| John A. Peters | Of course there are the circuit tracers that you plug in and go to the panel and use a sniffer to locate the proper breaker. I have found them to be not very accurate, especially with twin wafer double in one slot breakers. Is this still the case? |
| sceepe | quote: Couldn't you take a fine point permanenct pen and mark each duplex adjacent to the cover plate attachment screw hole. Put the panel number on one side of the hole and the circuit number on the other. Commercial usually uses room numbers but problem is the architect's room #'s don't match the end user's room numbers. Also no room #'s in residential. In commercial work just indicate the final room numbers on the schedule (lots of free software is avail to make schedules) For Residential, couldn't you add a room number chart to the back of the panel schedule. Doesn't have to be Cad drawn just outline of the walls with room numbers you make up. |
| stedder | probably marking the receptacles in that way would be best (or write on the inside of the box) 'cause otherwise , if somebody went to paint, took off all the wall plates and threw 'em in a bucket, not much chance of them goin' back the same. |
| Alfred | Labeling the inside of the box is a great idea for residential. On most commercial jobs it's always been a good idea to not only label the boxes but also paint them( overhead ). That way you can it and know if it is a lighting box or a receptacle box. I know most hospitals require all boxes to be identified. In residental standardizing is long over due. It's bad when you are trying to fix a water heater circuit and the panel schedule says -water, then another one says -water heater too.????? whaze up wit tiss!!! Thanks Alfred JOhnson 
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| WELLSEROUSKI | I usually keep lights and plugs seperate and plugs on exterior walls and interior walls seperate. Outside plugs will be front or rear and if a plug is on either side I lable W/frnt or rear and orient the description as if your looking at the panel or plug ext.garage wall or plug ext.bedroom wall or whatever room description on the plans has an outside outlet. I seperate my circuits well, costs more but thats's the way I roll and I still have plenty of work. A few hundred dollars is not going to make us or break us but when customers are happy the work just comes and circuits aren't likley to overload :) |
| Bill Bamford | I use an inexpensive CAD program to draw the building layout on one sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 paper if possible. Then I draw a symbol for all receptacles, lights and equipment and then I enter the panel number and breaker number next to the symbol. I then place the drawing in an acetate folder and glue to the inside cover. Then it doesn't matter how circuits are run. It takes about an hour to do after the building is wired. In the long run it saves a lot of time. |