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| Subject - Very important queston | |
| Kraze | Yesterday I was helping my uncle install a 240v recepitcal for his new clothes dryer it's a two wire 240v dryer.Where I live local code requires that all wiring supplying outlets in basements must be installed in conduit.So any way my uncle whent to the local Home Depot the night befor to get the supplies for the job now once we get the EMT bent and hung were ready to pull the conductors through.So I go to the bag with the stuff to get the wire I'm thinking he got single rolls of #10AWG but instead I find a roll of NM-B romex so I said to him that we have to run singe wires through the conduit so he stips the entire 50' roll of romex and we pull it through. Does this meet code?? |
| JimmyDee | I'm sure the only part that needed to be in conduit was the riser from the plug to the ceiling. The wire is rated for 600 volts so there is nothing wrong with what you did except it wasn't necessary. I may be wrong about the entire run of conduit being unnecessary but it will be the first I've ever heard of it. Jim |
| Kraze | the part that i'm mainly concerned about is taking wire from romex cable and running it in conduit instead of using single wires.is that legal to do. |
| JimmyDee | I've done it a few times when I ran out of single strand and it was going to be a short run. And yes it is OK as long as the strands of wire are marked 600 volt, which I'm sure all of it is. Jim |
| cs409 | i do it from time to time... ,,,,most of the time its uaually one or two ciruits in the conduit... its much more protected and has a better chance of no over heating! |
| cs409 | Time out Kraze "Yesterday I was helping my uncle install a 240v recepitcal for his new clothes dryer it's a two wire 240v dryer." ////////////////all new circuits for dryers must be 4 wire. |
| Kraze | Yea I know the whole red,black,white,and equipment ground thing thats how my hot water tank is and a electric range I wired up for my sister last winter. Thats because some of the componets require 120v and some 240v like the range with difrent setings like low and high heat.But there is such a thing of two wire 240v appliances like the dryer the motor,the heating elements,and any types of relays are all 240v.Cheaper to operate than a 120/240v appliance. |
| Kraze | Just two hot wires and a equipment ground. Or three wire what ever you wanna call it I just call it a two wire circuit because theres only two current carying conductors.:} |
| cs409 | do the family a favor,,,,,,,,,make it a 4 wire system as per the NEC code.....do it the right way...after u have ran the new circuit with 3 insulated conductors and the bare, then pick up a 4 wire app. cord set and wire it to the dryer the correct way,,,if this dryer has been in service for a few years, u will see the equip. bonding wire connected to the center lug on the dryer,,,u can seperate it and connect the bare to it.....goood luck.... |
| Electricman | Like Casey said all new installs must be 4 wire 2 ungrounded 1 neutral and 1 egc, Also I dont believe stripping romex and using the conductors for a full run of pipe is legal either the reason being that the conductors are not identified such as thhn or thwn or whatever. 310.11 I think, please correct me if I am wrong. |
| cs409 | once you remove the wire from the sleeve,,,they have no markings that i know of!! am guilty of using them thou,,,,but it is usually a 50ft run or less,,,one or 2 circuits at most......but it isnt that often..... |
| veganfan | I am confused. Where does it say you can not pull romex in emt? |
| Electricman | I am not saying that you cannot install cable in a conduit, what I am saying is that when you remove the outer sheath as you described and then install the individual conductors in the pipe it is a violation. The reason being is that the conductors are now no longer identified as to which type they are, ie temp rating and so forth. See 310.11 refering to marking. Non metallic sheathed cable is a complete cable assembly by itself and if you notice it is properly marked at proper intervals along the sheath. |
| cs409 | sorta throws a hitch in the ole gittie up on taking a white wire and painting/taping black etc to make it legal for a switch leg or on a 240 circuit etc....after u do so, u can no longer identify the conductor as to what type wire it is ie. temp rating and so forth! |
| Electricman | Casey, How so? Ya lost me . |
| cs409 | Electricman said.""I am not saying that you cannot install cable in a conduit, what I am saying is that when you remove the outer sheath as you described and then install the individual conductors in the pipe it is a violation. The reason being is that the conductors are now no longer identified as to which type they are, ie temp rating and so forth.""" what i was referring to, was when u re identify a white wire, for you can use it for a switch leg, or a hot wire etc etc....after u reidentify it with paint/tape etc..u cant tell what it is ie.....THHN etc due to the tape/paint LOL...i was just sorta playing off on the part where u cant identify the wire,,,,,understand now or still ?? |
| Kraze | Ok Ok I'm wrong,:{ I found the mistake. I'll start here. Back in the day prior to NEC of 1996(250.60) it was allowed to use the neutral wire of a 240v circuit to ground the receptacle box.This in turn required the use of a NEMA 10-30R or a 10-30P receptacle.When I said a new dryer I did not mean brand spanking new it was given to him (95 model GE).So this is were I went wrong.So the equipment ground is carying the unbalenced current so now can we just hard wire it and find a place to drill and tap for a grounding screw then hook it up the wright way.You know with 10-3. |
| Electricman | Casey, Ya I understand funny guy you are sometimes
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| cs409 | Kraze, 10-3 w ground? i see no problem with doing that......Jimmy, or any others, please jump in if you see a problem.......best to yall.... |
| Ryan_J | quote: It says it here: quote:and article 334, unlike article 330 makes no such allowance. quote: quote: The 2005 will allow it, however. |
| Ryan_J | quote: Electricman: See my above post, and regarding the temparature rating, see 334.80, which gives us a temperature rating for type NM cable: quote: |
| Ryan_J | quote: Casey: You can never use a white wire for a switch leg. See quote: |
| Electricman | Ryan, the point I was trying to make is that its a violation to remove the outer jacket or sheath from NMB and then use the individual conductors to be pulled through the EMT. 310.11 Correct? No? |
| cs409 | after a 100yrs, some OLD timers still call a switch loop a switch leg/some may not, who knows, but the true leg part of the loop being the power coming from the switch to the switched item..... You can use the white or gray conductor within a cable assembly for single-pole, three-way or four-way switch loops if it is permanently re-identified to indicate its use as an ungrounded (hot) conductor at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible [200.7(C)(2)]. now that said, and cleared up I HOPE,,,,,the issue had gone to being funny as to identifing wire/s! once u re-identify a wire, with tape/paint, wood burning set, silly putty r what ever u use,it may be the case where one cant tell what type of wire it is,,,aka, no sign of THHN or what ever is marked on it...so does this become an issue! p.s. maybe i will throw the leg out and keep the loop LOL....... |
| Electricman | casey
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| Ryan_J | :D I love to stir it up once in a while. :) |
| cs409 | so do i :)..... so u drinking any beer? |
| SteveMc | Casey, you can re-identify the white for use as a switch leg, but only if it is the hot side of the switch and not the switched side. |
| cs409 | i have always know this steve.....the issue with this post wasnt anything to do with switch leg/loops etc...it was about using romex, where u strip the indivual wires from the romex and then use in conduit, where it is a no no due to these wires being not marked /identified with THHN etc like u find on indivual wire... then i made a funny about what happens when u re-identify a white wire? u cant tell what it is, being funny!! LOL..catch it? ...... |
| Pierre Belarge | Reidentifying conductors as per 200.7 is not permitted for conductors installed in raceways, but for 'cable' type installations. 200.7(C)(1)-(2) Using the white conductor as a switch loop has been permitted as long as I can remember, reidentifying it has been in the NEC since '99 because of the influx of 'other' people doing electrical work. |
| cs409 | Welcome Pierre.......... good points, and also the reason for re-identifying............ not sure if most on here,,,and am guilty of this also,,,,have read the entire post? your comments on the use of wire which has been stripped from the sleeve of Romex and then use these #12,14 or 10 etc wires in a conduit....code says its a no no,,,, due to no markings on the wire,,,etc THHN etc...so bottom line,,,,if u did this,,,the only problem is, what type of single wires are in the conduit. then i made a funny,,and the funny was this......"well, if thats the case, what happenes when you paint/tape the white wire,,,u cant tell what type of wire it is!! aka, THHN etc.... " end of funny......but again, your input on using the wire from Romex without the sleeve, and using it in conduit....i think most on here has done it,,,(not an entire building) on say, conduit runs of 20 or so feet...like on the outside of a house, from the panel to the AC unit..etc.....your thoughts please |
| Pierre Belarge | Thanks Casey When the 2002 NEC was in the proposal and comment stage, the raceway group and the cable group were not in communication with each other. The raceway group changed the wording of not permitting cable types in the raceway unless permitted by the wording in the cable Article. So for the period of '02 code, there has been confusion as to whether it is permitted. The wording says no - the intent may be yes. In the 2005 NEC the cabling Articles will address whether each different cable type is permitted to be installed in whatever type raceway. So that issue will become moot finally!NM cable cannot be installed in any wet locations, so outside locations will not be permitted, even in raceways. Next time when installing NM cable, take a peek at the conductors inside the sheathing - there is no identification on the conductors. Also watch for the temperature limitations as per 334.80 - this is more important when the conductor size is greater than 10 AWG. It may affect the type of cable installation for ranges and other larger amperage required installations. Also what I see is the transition from one wiring method to another, without using the proper fitting as per 300.15(F), not forgetting the fitting is required to be accessible (not buried in sheetrock  )after the installation is complete. |
| shocky | HOPE YOU HAVE A 30 AMP DRYER! |