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	Subject - Ethics and FPE Panels SteveMc http://www.codecheck.com/pdf/electrical/240overcurrent/FPE%20Article%20from%20DH%20-%20Nov2003.pdf I am in the process of working up a quote for a customer that has a FPE panel, I gave him the information from the website listed above, but I hate to think that I may have scared him into changing the panel. He has sold the house, but not closed yet, and is looking at spending >$1000 to make it 'safe' for the new owner. I also plan to install a new meter, riser, and disconnect to correct other problems. The utility service wire is <8' above the ground in the back yard, there is about 40' of unfused service entrance cable running from the meter to the panel, no water pipe or driven ground, and NM running around the surface of the wall in the laundry room. But, I think he wouldn't have considered any of these repairs if he hadn't been told of the problems with FPE panels. The home inspector told him about the FPE panel, but didn't note the other problems. With all that said, should I have suggested that he replace a functional panel simply because it has a bad reputation? Is that ethical? If so should I run an ad in the newspaper and try to convince everyone else in town to let me replace their FPE panels? Comments please. JimmyDee FPE panels are junk. I refused to install them back in the 1970s when a contractor could save $5 on a panel and another $3 by using al wire. Now one has to ask the question, at what point does a group of people determine what is safe and proper for a house and what is not. Is it only houses that have FPE panels? If we want to condemn panels, lets add the Push-A-Matics. I personally have replaced (10 to 1 of every other kind) more Junk-A-Matics than all the other kinds. Where is the house inspection organization on this brand? Or anything else they determine they don't like. We had a post a while back where one was demanding a 100 amp split buss panel be changed because the inspector thought it was only a 60 amp. Who is to say that a 60 amp is inadequate for the house. My problem with this is not the FPE panels, it is the untrained, non electrically qualified people inspecting and demanding things be done that they have no clue about. Demands made by the house inspectors that go beyond what would be required by the local inspectors set a dangerous trend. I saw this happen in the 1970s when a well meaning group of do gooders saw an opportunity to have all the houses in an area upgraded for the new residents, that ended up costing the sellers more than the house was worth. What people did was to just walk away from the house and let the city have it for taxes 3 years later. By that time the house was junk and had to be torn down. If we are going to go back and require that houses be brought up to todays code, so be it. Lets not just hit the poor guy that is selling, just because now he has a pocket full of money to be able to pay for upgrading. Jim cs409 my area of texas is full of the FP boxes,,,as stated in the report, most where from teh 50s/60s building rush! in alll the boxes i have worked with/in/near, i have never in 30ish years seen a burned out FP box! i have seen SqD QO, homeline, murry, GE etc with breakers that failed/burned the panel but never a FP! not saying i want see a lot of this happen in the future..........in ratio of FPs to others, one FP to 10 of the other boxes out there...so every 10 boxes i do work on a house with a FP.....that said,,,the cost of replacement breakers for these boxes is UP THERE LOL.....its cheaper to replace the box verses change a few breakers to freshen up the box!! IMO i would bring the house to code, and in doing so, replace the box and be done with it..... all will be happy...u do not owe it to any one to make a post on FPs being good or bad, etc...and i wouldnt go on a job and say, hey, u know u need to read this! just use good judgement as you would on any other job. if the panel looks bad, tell the people it needs replaced, be it FP or any other brand. JimmyDee I'll add to my rant and agree with CS409. I have never replaced a Fed Pacific breaker of any kind. Never have seen one that went bad. Most problems I have seen with panels have been main service feeders that haven't been properly tightened. Jim John A. Peters These two are quite long http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpefire.htm http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm This report is a bit easier to read (shorter) and it gets to the point quoted below. The problem with these panels is that some double pole 220volt circuit breakers and some single pole 120volt circuit breakers may not operate as intended if overloaded. A good breaker trips (turning off the power to that circuit) Federal Pacific breakers appear not to trip every time which could result in a fire. Published reports of tests conducted on FPE two pole 220volt circuit breakers indicate that under certain conditions one leg/pole may attempt to trip the breaker. The result is a circuit that stays live, and a circuit breaker that has been compromised and when reset will not trip again under any excessive load. The web page is http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-fed-pacif.html journeyman491us ....A good question in regards to FPE. My experience with FPE is that generally they do not trip. Have you ever load tested an FPE breaker before? If I were asked by a homeowner about FPE??? I would test the breakers...but would not guaranty their operation. On one comercial job we loaded (with the temp light strings)a 20 amp FPE breaker to 37 amps for 3 1/2 hours...it never tripped! Would you want FPE in your house??? ...I would not go around placing adds in the paper at the risk of frightening people...but if I got a call from someone I would lay out all the facts and then let them decide. ...As far as the ethics go??? Have you ever taken into consideration that residential service panels should have a life expectancy??? 25-30 years is a good benchmark. After all a lot can happen in 30 years, moisture, surges, lightning strikes...years of inactivity. Have you ever had a service call for a main breaker that won't reset?? I have...breakers and panels wear out...think about it... journeyman491us ....A good question in regards to FPE. My experience with FPE is that generally they do not trip. Have you ever load tested an FPE breaker before? If I were asked by a homeowner about FPE??? I would test the breakers...but would not guaranty their operation. On one comercial job we loaded (with the temp light strings)a 20 amp FPE breaker to 37 amps for 3 1/2 hours...it never tripped! Would you want FPE in your house??? ...I would not go around placing adds in the paper at the risk of frightening people...but if I got a call from someone I would lay out all the facts and then let them decide. ...As far as the ethics go??? Have you ever taken into consideration that residential service panels should have a life expectancy??? 25-30 years is a good benchmark. After all a lot can happen in 30 years, moisture, surges, lightning strikes...years of inactivity. Have you ever had a service call for a main breaker that won't reset?? I have...breakers and panels wear out...think about it... stedder I've installed a new panel where the main wouldn't reset, (GE) and I wasn't there when the utility came but I was able to pick up a new breaker and run it over to the job, The guy I broke in with told me about a fire caused by a FPE 2 pole 30 that NEVER tripped and was the cause of the fire, had the power not been shut off the water would still be hot the next day, I don't scare, but always warn of the FPE problems. LK Quote: From first Post Author, SteveMc "With all that said, should I have suggested that he replace a functional panel simply because it has a bad reputation? Is that ethical?" __________________________________________________________________ It's not just a bad reputation, It appears, it's fraud according to a recent discovery made, they found the manufacture had cheated on testing. THIS IS A LEGAL NOTICE AND IS NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT ATTENTION NEW JERSEY HOMEOWNERS WITH FEDERAL PACIFIC ELECTRIC CIRCUIT BREAKERS Superior Court of New Jersey, Law Division: Middlesex County DOCKET NO. L-2904-97 ____________________________________________________________ SERAG YACOUT, SATISH CHAUDHARY and 432 OWNERS, INC., on behalf of themselves and all others similarly situated, v. FEDERAL PACIFIC ELECTRIC COMPANY, RELIANCE ELECTRIC COMPANY, Defendants . CLASS ACTION NOTICE To: ALL PERSONS OR ENTITIES IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY WHO CURRENTLY OWN, UTILIZE OR POSSESS ANY CIRCUIT BREAKER SOLD OR MANUFACTURED BY FEDERAL PACIFIC ELECTRIC CO. DURING THE PERIOD 1965 TO 1980, WHICH BEARS LABELING INDICATING THE BREAKER IS “UL LISTED” OR CONTAINS A SIMILAR CERTIFICATION THAT THE BREAKER COMPORTS WITH APPLICABLE UL STANDARDS, AND ANY PERSONS OR ENTITIES WHO HAVE REPLACED SAID BREAKERS SINCE 1991. 1. WHY SHOULD I READ THIS NOTICE? If you own Federal Pacific circuit breakers or have replaced Federal Pacific circuit breakers, please read this notice. It contains important information. You may be entitled to monetary damage and/or other relief. This Notice arises out of a class action lawsuit pending in New Jersey. The Court has directed that all claimants and prospective claimants must identify themselves in response to this notice on or before April 20, 2005. If you do not respond, you will lose your rights. 2. WHAT IS THIS LAWSUIT ABOUT? This Notice affects many persons who have Federal Pacific circuit breakers. The Court has already determined that Federal Pacific violated the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act. The violation occurred because FPE cheated during its testing of circuit breakers in order to obtain Underwriters Laboratories (UL) approval. The Court has already certified this action as a class action, but in order for your claim to be considered you must act now. If you qualify as outlined below, you may be entitled to monetary damage and/or other relief. The relief may include three times the cost of replacing your circuit breakers. 3. AM I ELIGIBLE TO PURSUE A CLAIM? Based on the Court’s rulings, you may be eligible to pursue a claim if you meet the following criteria: · You own a home or building in the State of New Jersey; · You must be the owner at the time that FPE Stab-lok circuit breakers manufactured and sold between June 29, 1971 and July 1, 1980 were installed as original equipment in your home or building; or you had renovations or additions done which included circuit breakers made and sold in that period while you were the owner; · The home or building contains original FPE Stab-Lok circuit breakers (If you do, the circuit breaker panel box will have the name and logo of Federal Pacific Electric Company and the words Stab-Lok on the breaker panel box) or you replaced the breakers since 1991. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REMOVE ANY OF THE CIRCUIT BREAKERS – you will be able to determine whether you have Federal Pacific Electric Company circuit breakers by looking at the outside of the panel box and/or the inside of the door to the box. Please note that if your panel box or the circuit breakers within the panel box refer to "Federal Pacific Equipment Inc." it is referring to a different company from Federal Pacific Electric Company. If you have Federal Pacific Equipment Inc. circuit breakers they are not included in this claim; · You are not one of the defendants, any entity in which any of the defendants have a controlling interest, any of the defendants’ past or present parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers and directors; or a retail or wholesale dealer who sold Federal Pacific circuit breakers and panel boxes. 4. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE A POTENTIAL CLAIM? If you believe you are eligible to recover and you wish to remain eligible, you must respond to this Notice by completing the coupon form mailing it to the FPE Administrator. THE COMPLETED COUPON MUST BE POSTMARKED NO LATER THAN APRIL 20, 2005 or you may go directly to www.yacoutclassaction.com to respond to this Notice; if you do so, you must do that by April 20, 2005. IF YOU FAIL TO DO SO, YOUR CLAIM WILL BE BARRED. The FPE Administrator will then mail you an FPE Stab-lok Circuit Breaker Information Form or you can obtain the Information Form on the website. THE COMPLETED INFORMATION FORM AND ANY DOCUMENTATION REQUESTED THEREIN MUST BE MAILED TO THE THIRD PARTY ADMINISTRATOR AND MUST BE POSTMARKED BY A DATE SPECIFIED THEREIN. IF YOU FAIL TO SUBMIT A COMPLETE INFORMATION FORM BY THE DATE SPECIFIED IN THE MATERIALS TO BE FURNISHED, YOU WILL BE BARRED FROM FURTHER PARTICIPATING IN THIS LITIGATION. Your claim may be subject to verification and investigation, including an inspection of the circuit breaker panel board and giving testimony with respect to your claim. 5. WHERE DO I GET ADDITIONAL INFORMATION? This Notice provides only a summary of matters regarding the litigation and is not deemed an admission by any party. You may seek the advice and guidance of your own private attorney, at your own expense, if you wish. For more detailed information, you may review the pleadings, records, and other papers on file in this litigation, which may be inspected during regular business hours at the Clerk's Office, Superior Court of New Jersey, Law Division, located at One JFK Square, New Brunswick, New Jersey. If you have any questions regarding this Notice, you can contact class counsel: Chase Kurshan Herzfeld & Rubin, LLC 5N Regent Street, Suite 508 Livingston, New Jersey 07039-1617 Attn: Lisa Santana Tel: (973) 535-8840 Email: lsantana@chaselaw.nj.com PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT THE COURT OR THE CLERK'S OFFICE. The Honorable Bryan D. Garruto. (CUT ALONG DOTTED LINE – PLEASE PRINT) REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FORM I would like to have an FPE Stab-lok Circuit Breaker Information Form mailed to: Name:______________________________________________________ Address:____________________________________________________ City: ____________________________State ______ Zip Code________ Property Address(es) where FPE Stab-lok circuit breakers are installed (if different from above address) Address:____________________________________________________ City: ____________________________State ______ Zip Code________ CERTIFICATION: I HEREBY CERTIFY UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT (1) I AM THE ORIGINAL OWNER OF A HOME OR PROPERTY WHERE FPE CIRCUIT BREAKERS ARE INSTALLED, (2) I CONTINUE TO OWN THE PROPERTY AND (3) THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS TRUE AND CORRECT. Signature:_____________________________________ Date:___________ MAIL THIS REQUEST TO: Yacout Information Administrator P.O. Box 600727 Jacksonville, FL 32260 Or respond via email at www. yacoutclassaction.com This REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FORM must be completed and sent to the FPE Administrator in order to continue to remain a member of the class. THIS FORM OR YOUR EMAIL RESPONSE MUST BE POSTMARKED OR RECEIVED NO LATER THAN APRIL 20, 2005 in order to maintain any rights you may have. kbsparky Too bad that was only for New Jersey jobs. We are currently working on a large project of group replacement of thousands of FPE breakers. Big Buck$.