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| Subject - Mud Room GFCI | |
| Electricman | Hey Guys, Got a code question, I recently finished a single family dwelling that has a mud room from the garage (attached)and the kitchen. I had placed receptacles in this room at the required distances and 2 of them fall within 6 feet of a laundry tub. One inspector passed the house with no problem (He uses Nec only) but a local township inspector is insisting on gfci protection. The inspector who is requiring gfci cannot nor will not give us the code he is aplying. The laundry tub is the only thing in this room no washer or dryer, so it is not a laundry area and even if it was Nec does not require laundry area to be gfci protected(YET). So my question is what is your take on this? |
| David Hyatt | I don't see where he is coming from either. Is the mud room at or below grade level? Are these rec. at countertop level? You can completely remove them if they are not a necessity. |
| Electricman | The room is at grade level and the recptacles are at my general purpose height 15" , No countertop. Recently here in Pa. laws have been passed that are making townships and municipalities that had no inspections have them. This has brought on a new breed of inspectors who have passed a book test and wala instant inspector  (HEH HEH Just Kidding) Alot of these inspectors have little or no expierience in the electrical trade. This is not the first time that an inspector has dreamed up a "code" on me, the funny thing is they never have an official artical that they are applying they just mearly say "Thats what I want".
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| Scott Vickrey | Unfortunately when the AHJ says that's what I want then that is as good as code. Here's how you handle these situations. Say Oh, yes your right I should have seen that I'll put that in there right away. I'm glad you noticed that. Then be glad when the dummy leaves and congradulate yourself because you have better social and electrical skills than he does.
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| wireman | I recall reading somewhere that any receptacle outlets within 6' of a water basin are required to be GFCI protected. I'll have to look in the code book again. Anyone know where it's located? |
| David Hyatt | Wireman, I thought I have seen that too, tried to find it when I made my first post but could'nt. Maybe it changed over the years. Eletricman, if it is not at grade level I dont see where he could even imagine they have to be GFCI. But the type of room it is if I didn't want to use GFI maybe just remove the ones that or 6' of sink, because they are just general purpose anyway, right? But like Scott said I know from exsperence not to tee off an inspector. Good luck. |
| ricky | 210-8 covers ground fault circuit interupters.Section 5 says countertop recepticals within 6 feet of sink.Refrig rec is exempt.All recepticals in baths,garages,outdoors to 6'6'' above grade,crawl spaces,kitchen counters and bar wet sinks,and boathouses.Refreg & freezers are exempt.The code official has the last say regardless of the NEC.The NEC is a guide.Do what he wants,he's concerned about your safety.A GFIC is cheap protection. |
| David Hyatt | Ricky, are you in the 2002 code? The only place I see 6' of sink is (7) talking about wet bars. But I do agree AHJ has the last say. |
| JimmyDee | Here in the state of Michigan, a new rule has been passed down from the Chief Michigan Electrical Inspector (CMEI) . It states that any violation caught by the inspector has to be put in writing and the code article and number of the violation that was not held to, stated in writing also. The rule states, if the inspector refuses to do that, there is no violation and to report all incidences of this type of abuse of power to the (CMEI).I think it is about time this happened and would be great if it covered all states. Jim |
| Electricman | I am movin to Michigan
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| Electricmanscott | Ok I will jump in late with my first post. #1 There is no NEC requirement for gfci protection of these receptacles. #2 Just because an inspector says "I want it that way" means absolutely nothing. #3 If the NEC is the adopted code in a given jurisdiction that is where you will find the requirements. The inspector must interpret the code as written, not write the code as he sees fit. I hope this helps clear things up. |
| iwire | I agree with Scott. It is important to know the difference between the AHJ and an Inspector. In the States I work in the AHJ is a State agency the inspector I see on the job is just an inspector that can only enforce the rules as adopted by the AHJ. Of course there are areas where the AHJ and the inspector are one in the same but it would surprise me if they are allowed by local ordnances to make code up as they want. |
| JimmyDee | With some AHJ or inspectors it is about what they want or think is right. Some will do what they want and they know they can make the installing electrician spend a lot of time and money so many just give in under that pressure. Jim |
| Scott Vickrey | You have to pick your battles. Most are best avoided. A few are worth fighting. |
| iwire | quote: I somewhat agree with that and for the small stuff I usually just give the inspectors what they want. At the same time if you ask for a code article for what the inspector says is wrong it he is required to provide it. (At least in the States I work) Bob |
| Electricmanscott | Picking and avoiding battles are one thing, but having an inspector make up rules as they go is nonsense. I don't work that way and will not ever. I will not hesitate to go to a higher level (in MA the state board) when necessary. I have done this on several occasions and would do it again. These inspectors are there to inspect and enforce the code as written. They and us should have the same objective, unfortunately some like the power angle and end up abusing it. Thankfuly that is a rare occurance where I work. |
| Ryan_J | Although the 2005 is set in stone yet, it appears that this wil be a required GFCI recptacle in the 2005. The CMP voted 12-0 for it, and I have a hard time beleiving that it will get overturned on the floor. |
| Jakewamp | Not sure where ya'll are from but most of the inspectors in my area of TX are former GC'S( general conractors (jack-of-all-trades master of none ) like myself who where tired of working for a living so they became inspectors. They always wanted to skirt the laws before but give hem alittle power and....look out. I say show me the code or it stays. |
| Electricman | WE made the local yocal inspector happy we installed a GFCI. Only problem is his head swelled so big couldnt fit him out the door.
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| Electricmanscott | Maybe I am too thick headed. I see nothing in the code that says "Make the inspector happy". |
| JimmyDee | quote: I think it the part that says he has the final say.  Jim |
| Electricmanscott | Jim where would I find that? In my state the inspector has the final say on enforcing the NEC with state ammendments. If it's in there enforce it if not tough luck. There is no requirement for gfci protection in this location. End of story. If I can be honest it must really suck to be an Electrician in your area if that is how inspections work. |
| David Hyatt | Well it does really stink to be an electrician in my area. We have this one inspector, I was taught in my apprenticeship, who never to make mad. You will have an enemy for life. I should have listen because I made him mad. I have argued some points with him and won, but not often. He will nit pick you to death. So if possible I try not to buck the system. |
| iwire | It is tough to talk about AHJs and inspectors on a National Level as each State or area handles it differently. Scott and I live in MA and are used to the way it is here. 80.2 Definitions. Authority Having Jurisdiction. The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure. Electrical Inspector. An individual meeting the requirements of 80.27 and authorized to perform electrical inspections.[/quote] We have not adopted article 80 here in MA but those definitions are how it is for us. For Scott and I the AHJ is a state agency, not the inspector that comes out to the job. The inspector who comes out to the job has little authority, they can say pass or fail, they can not make up rules they feel the AHJ has forgotten. |
| JimmyDee | quote: I hate to admit this but I just discovered article 80 in the 2002 code book.  Jim |
| Dave Nix | Jimmy, No need to feel , I find new stuff all the time!Just ask Bob or Ryan!
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| Electricman | WOW I never thought my little gripe would cause such a stir. Here in PA it works a little different than with you guys. There is a state law that says all new electrical work must be inspected, so all electricians have an underwriter which is a inspecting agency to inspect your work that it meets NEC codes. But often times townships and municipalities have teir own inspectors or underwriters and this is usually where the fun begins, I have heard first hand arguments between these two, even threats of rattling their legal sabers over interpretation of the Code. So in essence there are times when you get inspected twice once from your own undewriter(you pay)and the one that is provided by the township(they pay) often times these contracted inspectors have no expierience as electricians so you can guess some of the outrageous things they come up with from time to time. Dont take me wrong I have the utmost respect for the knowlege and authority that the inspector has (hope to do it one day) as long as he or she knows what they are talking about. Thanks Guys for listening to this sparky ARC off for awhile.
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