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	Subject - separate building, grnd and bond rabbitgun I should know the answer but would like verification. Please post code ref.... Feeding separate service on a free standing garage (panel) from Main panel at the Residence: 1. Do I need to run a grounding conductor with the hots and neut between the panels? 2. Can the neut be bare if part of an SE cable? 3. Can the neut and ground be bonded in the sub panel. 4. Do I need a main in the sub panel ( or main disconnect located at the garage.) Thanks, Ryan_J Have you read 250.32? rabbitgun Ryan, Yes, Had my code book open to the article as I pulled up your post. Still confused. (B) (1) says grounding conductor shall be run...........(B) (2) gives an option if it is not run........... ?? 230.41 Bare neut is OK. 338.10 (B)(2) says nope, not if it is SE cable........? rabbitgun Here is the deal. I have always run 4 insulated conductors in PVC Treated it as a sub panel and kept the grnd and neut separate. The argument I wish to settle is if there is another way. Ryan_J You can use three wires (two hot and one nuetral) if there are no metallic paths between the structures, such as gas, water, coax or phone. Using this method, you would bond nuetral to ground at the second structure. If you have mettalic paths between the structures, you are required to use four wires, and isolate the nuetral at the panel. Does that answer your question? Also, get out of article 230...you can't be in the services article for this, you must be in 225. rabbitgun Thanks Ryan, My battle continues, I understand what you have said but the situation has turned into a battle of the use of a bare conductor in a type SE cable being used for the neutral conductor. Your right about 230. This is not a service lateral, it is a feeder. 338.10 spells out the use of the bare conductor with regard to it's use as a grounded conductor............ Thanks again, Wish I could split the case of beer I won (or will) with you.;) lctrc789 If you are using type SEU or SE cable then that is ok to use it as is, the SE cable does have a bare neutral, but it is encased in the cable itself. I always use the 4 wire method and seperate the grounds and the neutral and treat the sub panel as a sub panel but that is just me, even when I do this and there is no metallic paths I still use a ground rod, some localities require it that wasy as well. rabbitgun Pat, I don't think that is correct.(Regarding the uninsulated neutral.) Take a look at 338.10(B)(2) Ryan_J Rabbit: you're exactly right on your reference to article 338. I too wish I could split that case with you ;) lctrc789 Ryan you may be right there, But I thought that SE cable was permitted to be used on systems that were not over 150 volts to ground. Hence 120 volts to ground each leg on the same premises. Could not do with a 277 of course but that is our local code here if you come up with something differnt than the 120 volts to ground please point it out to me. I am at home and do not have a 2002 NEC or the 2005 book here. Thanks. Ryan_J Pat: That must be a local requirement, because it is not an NEC rule. lctrc789 Ryan, I may be thinking of service entrance conductors 99 code book I know the article was 230-41 exceptions (d) for uninsulated conductors in Cable assys. I remember in the 99 code book that article 338-3 (b) was another article where it stated that cable uninsulated was OK. Perhaps they have changed in the new code book if they have let me know, I know are local allows it as long as we do not exceed 150 volts to ground. Let me know I have to get to work and read the new 2005 book and see if it has. devo Re: <You can use three wires (two hot and one nuetral) if there are no metallic paths between the structures, such as gas, water, coax or phone. Using this method, you would bond nuetral to ground at the second structure.> If you do bonding in the second structure you must also drive round rods devo round...ground LOL Ryan_J See my article here for grounding and bonding of seperate structures: http://www.electricalknowledge.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1370 lucky1122 Rabbit , the way you are describing servicing a separate structure such as a garage is the most effective way to do the job .In that system the equipment ground that is run with the service for the garage will be grounded at that structure to all electrodes ,which should be bonded together. There is another option though. If a three wire service arrangement was used it would have to be run in PVC, in order to prevent neutral currents from taking any parrallel paths back along with the neutral .There is one other thing that must be very carefully known before you finalize using the method. When the neutral is used this way it is permissable to ground it again at the service entrance of the new sructure even though it is fed from another panel. However, it must be carefully ascertained as to whether or not there are any parallel paths connecting both structures together : interconnecting pipe,steel etc. if there are you must use method 1. Which is the most fool proof method .So in a word your doing it the best way! lucky1122 rabbit, the code rule which you have sited concerning art338 I do not believe applies to this particular instance . Type SE or USE can not be used as a branch circuit unless all circuit conductors are insulated but if you read on it says in art 338.109b(2)"Type SE service entrance cable shall be permitted for use where the uninsulated conductors are used for circuit wiring and the uninsulated conductor is used for equipment grounding purposes only. Exception:uninsulated copnductors shall be permitted as A GROUNDED CONDUCTOR IN ACCORDANCE WITH 250.140,250.32,225.30THROUGH 225.40.If you read 250.32 carefully giving special note to 250.32b(2}I think you will agree. but look you already got the most effective way to do the job . yellowkitty Be sure not to run your SER cable underground, even in conduit. SER is an above ground wiring method. If in doubt check the UL white book.Cheers