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| Subject - code violations | |
| wireman |
HI Everyone, I'm new to the forum. I've done my apprenticeship wiring apartments with a local company. I have been self employed ever since I was laid off. The job I was on was red tagged one day because the electrical crew was out-pacing the siding crew leaving romex exposed to the weather. Anyway it was a blessing in disguise. I since have been working for local general contractors and home owners doing residential jobs. I got called by an interior decorator that I met on a job recently to install some cabinet lights in a condo that SHE was renovating. When I got there I found several violations where a CARPENTER had butchered the metal conduit (which is by the way is also the grounding system). Appliances were wired improperly. One wall which had been partially sealed up had open air splices. SCARY. I reluctantly did the cabinets and explained to the owners of the potential problems they may face down the road. I told them they should have me back to correct the violations and that the wall should be taken back down and wired properly. The owner I wont name shruged it off saying "It's only 110 volts!" I didnt want to press the issue so after I finished the cabinet job I politely collected my money and reminded them to call me back to schedule a time when I could fix their other problems.It's been 2 months and they since have proceeded with their carpenter to complete the wall and not give it a second thought. Should I report this to local electrical inspectors? Or some other reporting agency? I don't want to cause these folks any grief. What would you guys do? |
| Scott Vickrey | Welcome to the forum wireman. When you say butchered what do you mean? |
| wireman | by butchered I mean cut away with a recip-saw leaving jagged edges and conductors hanging out. |
| David Hyatt | I don't think reporting it would do any good. You made the effort to make things right, I would say it is the responsibility of the home owner and contractor now. I do alot of old work and have seen many things, people just don't want to spend the money to do things right. If it works they are happy. Fire does not even come to mind with some people. |
| Scott Vickrey | Most people hate to spend money on electrical work because, It's not a tangible or material object. I've allways had a hard time billing what I should because of this. People will happily pay more for someone to mow their lawn every week than pay an electrician to come out for an hour and keep the house from burning down. |
| wireman | Thanks for the quick response. Sad but true. |
| JimmyDee | "It's only 110 volts!" More people are kill every year with 110 volts than with anything else! Jim |
| electrofried | This is just a question.If the place burned up and you were the last electrician in there could you be held liable.not trying to scare you just wondering how that would work out |
| JimmyDee | quote: I think that last one on the job would be at the top of the law suit papers. Might be a good idea to put, in writing, the problems found and send a certified letter to that person. Jim |
| wireman | Good idea, thanks jimmy d |
| Scott Vickrey | Well, at least you have your concerns documented in here. |
| wireman | Thank you Scott. I had the same thought. |
| gregm | In the future you may want to: 1)take pictures, 2)give copy of pictures to homeowner along with a quote for repair,and 3)keep a copy for yourself with the homeowner's signature acknowledging reciept. you are helping your liability issues, you are doing the right thing for your customer, and you are possibly generating follow up work. the NFPA website has some great statistics about fire deaths, home electrical fires are huge in terms of percentage of total deaths caused by fire. |
| breaker | I too am a new member to the forum and am surprised to find a web site where concerned electricians can air thier beefs. I'm told all the time by other contractors"you electricians have got it made", and I get tired of hearing it. I'm a few months away from my first exam and am trying to find info about the test. My boss doesn't seem to free in offering info about the test like it's some big trade secret or maybe he's afraid I'll out test him lr ask for more $ or benefits (like i get any now!)or something. Ive tried to study the code book but fall asleep fast and can't remember anything i read after a short time. I've been in the business profesionaly for about 5 years now. I've wired just about everything trailer houses to prosessing equip. in factories and veg. packing sheds and even irrigation systems bur i'm scared of the exam. any sugestions? |
| Scott Vickrey | Breaker, Read this post: Taking the Test Welcome to the forum.
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| kyelec | well i dont want to belittle anybody for trying to make a living ,but, if things are as bad as you say then somebody should be notified. every job ,including my own, sometimes does things that is needed to safely complete the job but maybe not 100% up with the code. the key word is SAFELY!! for example: maybe outlets are need to be 13' apart instead of 12" imo that is not exactly what code says but probally not going to kill anybody. but what you have described seems to be a dangerous sitiuation. i would have to try to fix it somehow |
| JimmyDee | I agree with the safely part of what you are saying, however you must remember that if the house was up to the code at the time it was built and would not pass an inspection today, that is entirely different than something that will cause personal injury or property loss. Your example of receptacle spacing or number of receptacles or anything else that was up to code in the 50s probably will not constitute a safety problem. These type of problems we may suggest an update. Problems that could cause a major risk, we should be very firm in our recommendations and it should be documented that it was brought to the customers attention. Jim |
| wireman | Thanks everyone for all your input. I suppose I'm off the hook as far as being the last one to work on their electrical system. These people have had their CARPRNTER resume working on it! I guess he works cheaper than I do, and does the job in less time with a fraction of the parts! What a screaming deal! Some people are just oblivious to anything you tell them. They laughed as they told me about one of the laborers on the job got burned on his knees when they were relocating the water heater. He was cutting the conduit away (on his Knees) to make room for a dishwasher when he got zapped. How stupid is that! Didn't even turn off the breaker first! I told them they were lucky it didn't kill the guy. Their faces turned pale white and they quickly changed the subject. |
| JimmyDee | quote: I think I beginning to see the value of state licensing. Who do these people go to when the house burns down or someone gets killed? Jim |
| wireman | They probably blame it on anyone but themselves. As for these folks they are in the upper tax bracket and will just relocate. CALL ME A CYNIC. |
| Electricman | A carpenter doin electrical work? Oooooooooooo! SCARY I have had the personal experience of fixin stuff after a person who thought they new what they where doing didnt. |
| cs409 | report them,,, send a letter explaining your intent with the problems they have and what should be done to correct them. 2nd, let them know your not in any way asking to be the electrician for the said work, but sense they took such a neg. approch that you felt as thou u should do something before someone gets hurt!...when you go in person to report them, bring a copy of the letter you sent them. this will help protect your butt...as above, they will tag u with this if a problem comes up, because they are pompus(not sure if correct spelling) u know what...and some etc's also.... best of luck p.s. next time you see a problem like this you should address it before you get involved with any work to be done...in this case if they didnt want to repair it, or address the problem,, you should have walked away from the job.... |
| wireman | I'm not persuing this any further.It's been some time now and they have had more work done. I'm not the last one to work on the electrical there and if they call me back I will turn down the work. I informed them that when they go to sell, that the place probably wouldn't pass inspection, that they might be forced to fix the problems then.(I wish you could have seen their faces) I definitely learned form this experience and will not take any more jobs for people that don't take electrical work seriously. |
| cs409 | good for u.... the sad thing about all this,,,MONEY,,,just have to learn when to do with less until something else comes along... |
| aussiesparky | Guys Just browsing the forum and found this topic. I thought I'd add the perspective from down under. Every one was right in their assesment the most important thing, other than ensuring the work you complete meets the code,is to cover your a**!! In my state we even have a requirment to report wireman's example to the regulatory body after notifying the owner. If they find the installation to be unsafe or non compliant the have the power[no pun here] to remove supply. |
| cs409 | does the power run on the wrong side of the road down under LOL on another note, what power do yall use.....120/240 single phase 60H for most general residential? etc etc.. also explain why one part of your country is 1/2 ahead or 1/2 behind on time? thanks and welcome from Texas |
| YukonRay | This topic brings up several points: First of all - do you have to be licsensed to do work in the state you live as a contractor? Are you a liscensed electrician? If you are an electrician or a contractor you are likely very liable for the work you didn't touch be were aware of, because you did other work that was indirectly related to noted work in violation. At least you need to document the issue and send the owner a letter. Keep a copy for your records. If the court papers ever come flying you'll have something to back you up. Second - just becuase someone lives in a upper status home doesn't mean that everything in life is easy for them. I am sure they would be just as devistated as any one of us with the loss caused by a fire or other electrical hazard. Third - Electricians are expensive and for most of my life in the industry have somewhat of a premadonna complex. Almost as bad as elevator installers. I don't think electricians or contractors have an attitude or anythings - it is just the need to execute work in a safe manner that most other people don't understand. And you know just like anyone else, it is hard to spend the money. Of course if it works it is good enough and you know - "nothin will ever happen" My suggestion is to let the customer know that the work had to be done - After you convince them of the safety issues they will be glad to pay to have it done right. Even if it hurts at first -everyone likes to own something of quality. After you present your letter and argument - and do your best to convince them to correct the violations - then you can leave the matter with a clear conscience. One more item- every time I here about a fire - especially in a building - I worry, if just for a fleeting moment that I may have been involved with the wiring.... Good luck. |
| aussiesparky | CS409: We run the power anyware!! [Just Kidding] Still Trying to work out the definition of "LOL" help? General Domestic [residential] is 230 50Htz single phase and light commercial is 230 single phase or 400 Htz three phase. Suply Co's run at 6.6, 11, 22 & 66KV, Highend transmission 220, 330 & 500KV Have you ever looked at a map of the USA and Aus superimposed over each other, It's 4.5hrs flying time East to West coast. |
| cs409 | yep,,,,wierd isnt it! whats with the different time zones? as in 1/2 hr different? is that 230 50htz 2 pole or what? as we have 120/240 single phase at 60htz,,,,120 being to ground(or neutral if in a 3 wire setup) and 240 being line to line. |
| frenchelectrician | i will step in here for aussiesparky : i did live in france before too ,, for aussie electic system the 220 volts is line to netural. the same in France too it is 240 volts line to netural and line to line is 400 volts [ some will have much as 440 volts]. and some home have very large applanices like stove can be wired for 3 phase and water heater useally on single phase side but depending on kw rating most go up about 4 kw but bigger will useally run 3 phase over that rating . and a quick note the color codes are diffrent in aussie system and france wireing system both are not the same as usa/ canada system at all french wire color codes are brown for phase conductor , bleu for netrual conductor , green with yellow stripe for earth [grounding] myself someday i will make a list of voltage and color coding in here so other electrican can get a idea what the system do actally do work . merci , marc |
| aussiesparky | Thanks Marc, I'll start off, as we have already established Down Under is 220v Line to neutral and 400v line to line. Table 3.5 of AS/NZS 3000:2000 [Our equivelant of the NEC] COLORS OF CABLE CORES __Function__________________Identifing colors ______________________Recomended_____________Alternative Earth / Bonding _________Green/Yellow ___________Green Neutral__________________Black ________________ Light Blue Active __________________ Red _________________Any color Except green/yellow, green, yellow ______________________________________________black or light blue. We have no restriction on the color coding to voltage, ie we see a red insulated conductor and we know it should be 220v Line to earth[ground] or 400 line to line. General 3 phase standard is Red [Line 1] White [Line 2] and Blue [Line 3] |
| cs409 | what usual material to wire a residential home?? 12/2,,,14/2,,, etc etc..... |
| aussiesparky | Usual material to wire a home:- Power sockets are generaly cabled in 2.5mm2 7 strand copper PVC insulated and sheathed Red, Black and Earth cable [imperial is 7/0.029] Lighting is generaly cabled in 1mm2 PVC insulated and sheathed Red, Black and Earth cable[imperial is 1/0.044] Predomenant industry players for bakelite are Clipsal, HPM and to a lesser degree PDL. Clipsal are a one stop manufacturer Meter enclosures to power sockets and light switches and every thing in between except the cable. |