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| Ek's Home | Forum | Chat | Electrical Links | |
| Subject - Presentations to contractors | |
| Rodney |
I am just starting my residential business in the Salt Lake, UT area. I have found that most of the contractors I've gone to are already using an electrical contractor. Do you have any tricks of the trade when it comes to presentation? Any good ideas on how to get work? Is there anyone in the Salt Lake area that I could contact to get ideas for the local market? thanks Rodney |
| MONOLITH | quote: I recently had this same situation. I assume it's fairly common, as most GC's probably do have a 'regular' guy. But, remember in high school when you went after that girl even though she had a boyfriend, and a month later she was your girlfriend?  I walked into a GC's office who already had a guy. I had a great personal resume, I had literature about my company that was very professionally done, I was dressed right, and I talked the right talk. I simply presented myself properly, and said 'give me a try'. In 15 minutes I was his new 'regular' guy. You can do it. You just have to go get it. |
| Ryan_J | Rodney, I live in the Salt Lake area. I am an inspector and also a CEU instructor. E-mail me if there is anything I can do to help you. Ryan Code_enforcer@netzero.com |
| rabbitgun | When I considered going into business for myself I had a very successful mentor. He was kind enough to take a large amount of time with me in developing a business plan. The one item he stressed more than any other was that we all have strengths and weaknesses. He stressed that I not concern myself with my strong points but to make a very honest assessment of my weak points. I went as far as posting my weak points on a mirror so I could review them every morning when I shaved. In my own case I can be comfortable with people in a short amount of time. However, the thought of cold call sales can make me physically sick. Your basically applying for a new "job" on every call. Hey your your own boss now. Some of the things that you were obliged to do working for some one else can quickly take a back seat and move to the bottom of your "to do" list. I have had to force myself, even after all this time, to block out time every week for marketing and expanding my contact list. Three days a week I either take someone I don't know very well out to lunch, or, will drop off bagles or doughnuts at their office in the morning and ask if I can help out with any projects they are looking at. No matter how you feel inside put your best foot forward and let them know how much they are missing out in not using your services. I think Monolith had great points. I would also take Ryan up on his generous offer! ( Maybe he can refuse to pass any further inspections unless the G.C.'s use your services...HehHeh!) |
| Rodney | You guys are all studs!!! Excellent advice! Another question. I am bidding some plans today. I had a few contractors come over and bid a set of plans I had laying around just to find out what the market was supporting. One guy did per device. The other did $1.45 /sq' for code items. I downloaded Jaffe Software's Power! Estimator software, the trial version. I also used the persons spreadsheet who so graciously let anyone download. There was a $2000 spread($6145-$8,200). Since parts are pretty much fixed, labor is the issue. I pay myself $40, I bill my journeyman out at $30 and my apprentice at $25 per hour. That seems fair. I am bidding a two-story house with 2807 sq'. It's upper end with about 201 cans. How many hours do you think it would take to do it. The Jaffe software said it would take 114 hrs. Any ideas? |
| John A. Peters | Did you use the same labor rate in all the systems? What were the hours for each? ______ Did you look at the parts for each to see if they are really the same? |
| fgw | Rodney, When you bid dollars per opening, how much per hole? By the way, anyone in Fla. know the average per hole price? I'm curious to know how & where I stand with the rest of the area. Thanks in advance! Stay Well, Frank |
| John A. Peters | You will be better off exchanging your take on how long per outlet rather than how much per outlet. That way you can factor in your local labor rate. Your labor rate can vary also according to how you present your company. I price light outlets slightly more time than plugs and switches since you have to use a ladder for lights. Here are the times I use. Please comment on what you find in a labor manual or an estimating program. 0.85 is 85 hours per hundred or 51 minutes. All numbers include doing the trim later, but not the return travel time or setup time or inspection or home runs etc. Just he hole. LT is light PL is switch or plug Open-1-side (Open walls in a remodel) PL 0.85 LT 0.98 Open-2-sides (Open walls, new stick house) PL 0.68 LT 0.78 Fish-in-walls (Old house, small holes as possible) LT 3.00 SW 2.75 Neat-EMT (Surface EMT conduit, garage or workshop etc.) LT 2.06 SW 1.80 |
| MONOLITH | quote: Is this correct...201 recessed cans? |
| Mike Delaney | I charge $15 an opening (receptcales, sw, 3/w, 4/w, and light) $40.00 per can (this is can, trim, bulb, and install) $50.00 per GFCI ckt. $45.00 per smoke detector $40.00 per (dishwasher,disposal,microwave,washer) $30.00 per TV, or PH $475.00 100A service (no underground lateral, or overhead) $575.00 150A $750.00 200A We are fairly competitive, there alot of people out there wiring for less. I would like to think we do a quality job, with quality material, and we are there when we say will be there. So you get what you pay for. Those books I'm not so sure about there "average labor units". I use the whole count method, then try to check to see if it covers costs, like all add the material and labor I think it will take, mulitply by our overhead (30%) and subtract from the bid...I try to make it 15%-20% profit. I would not suggest the "sq ft method". You could a two houses with the same sq ft, and the way they are laid out, you may have 4 more 3/way's, and two smoke detectors in one than the other. Just my thought. It also seems like the proposal's for the sq ft method are ambigious (sorry for the spelling), where as the whole count you can tell them you will have 56 recepts, 12 sp sw, etc. |
| MONOLITH | quote: I am very curious about these prices. Only because in my area it seems to be much higher. OR, I'm wondering if I'm just way off!  If I'm not mistaken, John's pricing put's his openings near $90 or so? Mike, what area of the country are you? How do these prices seem to everyone else? |
| JimmyDee | quote: They look really low for W. Michigan. About the best you will see here is about $35 an opening and I know that can lights are $65 each. There are, of course, some that are much higher and some lower. Jim |
| Rodney | John, you are saying you charge 3 x labor rate to fish in a light and 2.75 x labor rate to install a switch? If that's the case I'm way low. How do you guys figure your overhead? What is it a percentage of? I know you add up all you overhead costs, but how do you figure it in your bid? John, you just add 30% and that seems to cover it? Rodney |
| John A. Peters | No. I am saying that it takes 2.75 hours to fish in an outlet in an existing wall in an old house that is occupied. I multiply that my labor rate and add the parts. I take the gross labor rate I pay my man and multiply that by three to get the retail rate. So if I were paying $20 per hour multiplied by three is $60 per hour by 2.75 hours is $165.00 plus 8.45 for parts. For a stick house new construction .85 hours (51 minutes including trim) by 60 per hour is $51.00 + parts 8.45.for $59.45 But this after years of learning. If you are new, use 2.75 (or even 2.0 if you have no general liability insurance) you can not use the 3 x GL rate until your men are well trained and relatively fast, and your company is a bit known i.e better for some reason or other that you can "brag" about and use for promotion. This includes having a live person answer the phone. I only got there when I started giving out a 16 page owners guide book with references and much more information. My advertising says we have "Master Electricians" and we are registered with the BBB and have been local for a long time. For a new company and a new stick house 0.85 hours by 20 by 2x is $34.00 + parts 8.45.for $42.45 Not marking up at least 2X? Watch it!JP |
| nfsus | we get 20-24 per opening, 15-30 per can 25 for garage door low voltage, 25 for door bell, 7-15 per tv or phone, 40 for 220 plus footages, 600-650 for back to back service 200a, and it ranges on and on. That is why when you lose one job it can hurt. There is not alot of money in it to start with. By the square foot it ranges from 1.85-2.25. |
| John A. Peters | How much time is estimated for each opening and what do you pay a journeyman class of electrician? |
| ohara7 | quote:i could sub all my work to you and make more money why give your work away?? |
| stedder | Y'all make me feel like a thief! In the Mid Hudson Valley it's 50 / opening, +++ 100/ HR, 100/ can plus adders for dimmers, decora, gfi, smoke etc. 1200 minimum for 200 amp upgrade MINIMUM! Building is way up and I'm in the 3 of 5 range for pricing. The citys are a whole other world (at least twice some times 3 or 4 times as much) depends how close to Manhattan. |
| fgw | Thanks for all of your input. It seems here in Brevard County on the East Coast of Florida, I fall right in line what y'all are getting in other places around the country. Now I don't feel like such a crook! (LOL!).... Thanks again for your input! Stay Well, Frank |
| ohara7 | richmond va $50 per gang 3 gang box $150. cans $50. cust provides $125 6" can $135 4' can $1300 200 amp service. $1900 400 amp service. $99. trip charge $42. half hour. 40% on all material $1000. hot tubs up to 5o amp and no more than 50 ft from panel. old houses are bid as 4.75 square foot wired to code. |
| Mike Delaney | I quess, it depends were you are located, it's probably all relative to the cost of living. I know a company out here (colorado), that wires about 500 houses a year, I asked him how he bids things. He'll take a subdivision after there done, and take the average of time and labor over like 100 homes, with this number he derives his labor units at .50 (30 minutes an opening (including panel, service, everything)), and he usually charges $30.00 per opening (including panel, service, etc.). This guy has it down to a science, the way explains it is alot better than I can, he makes it sound easy. |
| Romex Racer | I remember reading an article in Electrical Contractor Magazine a few years ago, they were profiling a large EC who specialized in tract homes, he said his profit was $150 per home. One callback and he was losing money.... I'm in Los Angeles, for remodel/addition work I charge: Per Box: $25 H7 w/trim and lamp" $45 Smoke Detector: $35 100 Amp Service (single story, overhead) $750 Dishwasher: $75 Disposal: $75 GFI: $35 This is romex and plastic boxes. |
| John A. Peters | Sorry if I am off base here but I have to ask... You said for remodel/addition I guess you must mean open 2x4 studs in a room addition or where they have taken down the rock or other wall covering, am I right? When I think of a remodel I think of fishing up inside existing walls from under the crawl space, basement or garage underneath the floor. So I guess you are talking about what I call "walls open one side". How long does it take for each box, assuming you are dong a bunch of them at the same time? ____ Or to ask it another way - How much time per box do you base your price on? I am asking for the time rather than the cost as it is a universal yard stick that works the same in different areas. Of course the time can be calculated by taking your per box price and dividing it by your retail labor rate, assuming your labor rate is realistic. Or do you just use a per box price that has worked ok in the past, and you do not worry about the labor rate that is built in? My guestimate is that the parts are about 4 dollars and the time is about 30 minutes each, so $25 - $4 / 2 is $11.50 per hour? If you can do a box in the high speed mass production time of 15 minutes each including trim, then your sales labor rate is $23.00 per hour. If you use a 2x markup on your labor then you are paying $11.50 per hour if you have employees. Do you? ________ I guess you are doing all the work your self, so you keep all the profits? _____ I am surprised the price for a disposal is not higher than a dishwasher since you need a switch for the disposal, right? I can't help but try to understand your prices, so I can help you and others, if you have questions on how to increase profits without losing work. |
| Romex Racer | JAP, I'm talking about walls that are open. I figure a guy can rough in 4 boxes per hour and finish 8 Rough Labor Units: .25 Finish Labor Units: .125 My costs roughly look like this (per box) Parts: $5 Rough Labor: $15 Finish Labor: $5 I supervise the work but do very little myself. My labor costs are suprisingly low. The work I do does not require one to be a great electrician, years ago I was a pretty sharp electrician but because I focus on residential I'm really rusty on controls, etc... I hire unskilled laborers to wire my remodels, additions and new homes. In 8 hours I can teach anybody how to read an electrical plan, nail a plastic box to a stud at the correct height, drill holes, rope and makeup, even cans and TV/Phone. If I don't train them personally, I have my most experienced helper train them. To teach someone the ins and outs of trimming out also takes about a day. Before the masses sound the alarm and mass hysteria erupts concerning these practices, keep in mind that I supervise everything and personally check everything for quality. I typically have 4 guys who I oversee. The switch for the disposal gets counted when I do my takeoff for switches, plugs and fixture boxes. Cheers! |
| NORCAL | Romex racer, how are you going to handle the California certification requirements with your unskilled crew? |
| Romex Racer | I'm going to do the same thing thousands of other ECs are going to do. Ignore it. The overwhelming majority of (non-union) electricans are simply not going to comply. Everyone knows the IBEW owns the DAS and what the real score is. I don't mean to be provocative or inflammatory, but don't expect anything to happen. For what it's worth, I'm a past member of Local 11 and hold union electricians in very high regard, but this is a non enforceable law. Yeah, I've heard the rumours that Comp carriers will enforce this, but there are *so many* workarounds, like launder your workforce through a temp agency (that you control)... The arugment that electricians should be certified for public safety is a laugh. That's what inspectors are for. If the AHJ admits it can no longer protect the public, then that should be addressed, but they seem to be doing a great job. Anyway, there's no argument against knowledge, if someone wants to get certified, I would encourage it. Oh, the ratio of 1:1 cert-apprentice ratio may be illegal (restraint of trade, etc). Wait till the legal challanges have been resolved, then we'll see. I believe (and sometimes I'm wrong) that it's a tempest in a teapot. Bah Humbug! 
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| JimmyDee | Romex Racer,quote: Man could I have used you to help me teach my electrical class. In just a few short 8 hours you can do something I could not do in an entire year with some of my students. Sometimes it would work for one day but by the next day, they had to be retaught. And the next day and the next day and the next day. Sure would like to know your secrete so I can hand it on to the guys that took over for me. Sounds like you do magic.Jim |
| JimmyDee | quote: I love your philosophical statement here. When we feebly try to analyze something as to if it is finite or infinite, we generally are dealing with something that is, like you say, incomprehensible but that does not change the fact that the only thing that is infinite is God and all else is finite because it is made by Him. Jim |
| MONOLITH | quote: Assuming that he actually exists, of course. But that's for another thread. 
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| Romex Racer | JimmyDee, That's too funny! This issue of retention. I know exaclty what you are talking about! You know the cool way we roll up cords? Kind of like a crotchet stitch, looping the cord into a chain of loops? You know what I'm talking about. Anyway, I had a guy that could never do this, I must've showed him 20 times! Ha! Ha! Yes, the student is a very important component. Thanks!........................Richard |
| Rodney | Hey guys, In my quest for new business, I am finding that other contractors are bidding durt cheap. It seems I would make the same money or more working for someone else with lots less stress. Do you guys make good money after it's all said and done? I made $20.10 as a commercial journeyman electrician and paid $200 for medical. Now I pay $540 for medical per month, $1700 per year for worker's comp, $650 per year for liability insurance, who knows how much for vehicles and over head. Who knows how much for down time. Anything positive to say? Help me out! |
| Romex Racer | Hang in there Rodney. Fisrt, are you sure about the dirt cheap bids? Information is often disinformation. I'm not making any accusations, but it's very common for newbie electrical contractors to bid too high. When I started, I was so worried about every contingency, that my bids where huge. In fact, I was double or triple the reeal price. A friend of mine became a ferrier ( a horse shoe-er), because he was new, he had to shoe the horses that no one else would. Bad horses, mean horses, biting and kicking. He had to shoe those terrible horses initially, ubtil he built his business and reputation. Now he only shoes the best horses. You're a newbie. You have to get down in the dirt and lowball and cut corners and do what ever it takes. Your customers will be the ones all the other electricians avoid. Bid low when you see extras on the horizon, charge big for those extras. Reuse parts and stretch the code if you need to. But build your business and reputation. Soon you will have good customers and you won't have to take jobs from the jerks and slow pays. You can't jump to the front of the line. It sux, but you have to do a lot of that sort of thing initially. YMMV but that's what I did. Best of luck. ..Richard |
| John A. Peters | quote: Not quite. before you take the 2.75 hrs or 3.00 hrs X the retail labor rate you have to have a proper retail labor rate. Instead of taking what you pay your men plus this, plus that, plus the other thing and then 35% more, just triple your gross labor rate and it will cover it, CSR, advertising and all (the whole enchilada of expenses including printer ink), and it will include a fair profit for you. Remember that triple times the GL is a mid range number. Double for a new company with no general liability insurance, and as much as 4 or 5 times markup for a ESI graduate.
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| MONOLITH | Just clarifying your definition of 'Gross Labor' John; Employee's hourly wage, plus taxes, right? (Fed, state, fica, medicare, etc)? Anything else factored in as well, or just taxes? Thanks |
| RSB | I have been reading several comments of Romex Racer. In CT. he would have a real problem. Ct only allow Lic. Electricians or State Registed apprentices. They are monitored and we have State Insp. that look for Lic. people on job sites. Evan the down and dirty Contractors charge more then what you post...Maybe we Pay alot more for Journeyman. Our Ins. is very High also. We also only allow 1 apprentice to 1 journeyman on a job site. You can have 3 Journey man and 3 apprentices,but never more then 1to1. |
| MONOLITH | I don't know what the laws are in Cali where RR is, but it was the same as you describe in Florida. I think the ratio there was 1 journeyman to every 3 apprentices, but it may have gone up. The main issue though, was enforcement. It was like driving without a seat belt. You know you'll get a ticket, but the odds of actually getting pulled over are slim to none. Point being, the ratios were rarely adhered to in FL because enforcement was weak. When an inspector came, you sent the helpers to lunch. I would assume the same game can be played in Cali. |
| Romex Racer | Keep in mind that these rules do not go into effect in California until July 2005. Nobody knows how it will be policed. I expect ZERO enforcement, but we'll have to wait and see... |
| John A. Peters | quote: No Just the hourly wage, period. All the rest is covered by the multiplier. Higher multiplier covers more benefits, and better presentation. Just like doubling the wholesale parts price covers the taxes, delivery, shopping time, shrinkage and yada yada. Which multiplier to use? See previous notes, or ask a question. The customer does not want to see all those percents spelled out. They just want to know you have them covered (Insurance, etc.) |
| MONOLITH | quote: Ahh ok, thanks. It was the word 'gross' that confused me, because in terms of our own pay, the difference between gross income vs net income is the inclusion of taxes. |